mission27

I can certainly think of someone who would disagree lol

And its the same with steroids right? Any sane person watching baseball in the 90s and 00s seeing guys jaws grow 50% and guys like Brady Anderson hitting 50 homers... along with the whispers around the league about PEDs... would’ve known what was going on. But fans and the media and the league chose to look the other way for years. Any sane person watching the Astros midget brigade hit home run after home run in 2017 playoffs in the biggest spots, watching them run through the playoffs with absurd home road splits, and given numerous complaints from other players and teams, would’ve known what was going on. And most of us assumed. But there was always the plausible deniability of “the Astros are the smartest org in baseball and they’ve never been proven to have cheated.” In both cases everyone looked the other way because it was good for business, until it wasn’t, and then pretended it was limited to a few high profile people in the sport and purged them in a way that was completely unfair and disproportionate and not good for the game. People are starting to wake up to that truth when it comes to steroids, but a lot of the damage is done. Its probably going to take some time to separate us from the emotions of this situation before people feel the same way about this.

I agree its worse than corking a bat or doctoring a ball, mostly because of the scope and scale of what they did... if they’d done this once, I’d say it was pretty similar Steroids had a huge impact on the field of play too, doesn’t mean Bonds et al should have been black balled... all of us have been bitching about Bonds being black balled for years Tbh similar to steroids I am 100% confident in saying whatever the Astros did did not damage the $10B baseball machine Just like steroids brought people back to the park, everyone drooled all over themselves when Altuve and Bregman were hitting home run after home run vs the Dodgers Sure its a bad news cycle, but at the end of the day people assume there is gamesmanship and cheating in the game, it doesn’t have the same impact of throwing games or crooked refs, this is just another in a long line of cheating scandals that will have minimal impact on viewership

Im with you that I doubt Luhnow had no knowledge whatsoever of what was going on... if you and I knew full well the Astros were stealing signs their GM probably had some idea I dont doubt that he was unaware of the specifics and chose to look the other way because his team was winning and they were the smartest, hardest charging org in baseball and it was just what they do... similar tbh to the position Crane was in Yeah that’s a problem but doesn’t seem to justify a lifetime ban when there are a million other people inside and outside of the Astros organization who were also negligent or active participants and aren’t being punished at all Its really a difference of perspective... if I’m him, I’m thinking I didn’t really know what was going on, this was an on the field thing, not my purview, the other guys are much more responsible, and Crane stabbed me in the back to save his skin

Manfred sent out a notice, my guess is Luhnow forwarded it on, whats the difference, they’re both responsible as is Crane for the conduct of MLB players on the Astros At the end of the day you can say the difference is Luhnow was aware of what was going on and Manfred wasn’t, but Luhnow denies he was aware and Manfred should very much have been aware; my guess is they both knew or suspected something was going on, likely did not know the details, and didn’t really want to look too hard There were numerous complaints against these teams over the last 3-4 years from the Yankees alone, I’m sure from other teams... doesn’t seem like any serious attempt was made to investigate in the early stages... Manfred should have known something was up, when there is this much smoke their is usually fire, as pretty much every fan and media person could have told you a year ago Clearly the players cooked this up and the coaching staff, front office, ownership, and MLB were all negligent in letting this go on, because making a big deal about it was bad for business. All I’m saying is the responsibility here is being very narrowly applied to 4 people because that’s easier than addressing that this was a systemic issue in the league and pretty much everyone across the sport has some responsibility

The Chiefs should be favored but I’m going Titans

Had the Mets not traded Beltran in the first place he could’ve finished his career in orange and blue and never had any opportunity to cheat

https://www.nj.com/yankees/2020/01/mlb-rumors-carlos-beltrans-niece-says-astros-jose-altuve-alex-bregman-wore-devices-that-buzzed-as-part-of-sign-stealing-scandal.html?outputType=amp ban the fleas

And to smugly quote myself this to me is my fundamental issue with how people are reacting here It reminds me so much of how people reacted to the steroid thing. We knew for years players were juicing and the league and media and fans looked the other way or joked about it. Then when they decided to take it seriously, a few people were selectively purged and we moved on. That’s a really really bad approach. Same thing here. We knew for years the Astros and Red Sox and likely others were engaged in gamesmanship like this using tech and people looked the other way and laughed it off even when the evidence was pretty clear. Now we’ve turned immediately into witch hunt mode. Nobody is asking why a GM or a team should be aware that his players are doing this but the commissioner shouldn’t by. Why the commissioner didn’t put any controls in place to make sure this sort of thing didn’t happen with replay technology and why he ignored REPEATED warnings about these two teams specifically over the last 3 years. He let this get out of hand too to the point where it effected multiple World Series. Should he be banned for life too?

And to your point about Luhnow may all be fair points I know nothing about the guy But I think it just points to a lot of what is driving this vitriol People hate the Astros because they are annoying, because of the Ozuna thing, etc and the Astros and Sox are the two most successful orgs in the league over the last 5 years If this was the Tampa Bay Rays people would care a lot less. Even if it were the nationals

I guess I’m just too cynical to believe this was an isolated incident In order to be as mad about this as most people are I’d have to believe: 1. The Astros were doing something very far outside the norm of what other teams typically do 2. There was no reason for them to believe it wasn’t a big deal 3. It actually had a big impact on games My guess is the vast majority of teams were doing something... this was the most sophisticated and successful operation because it’s the Astros and they don’t do **** half assed and are always looking for an edge, but believing they were the only ones using tech that is universally available and unsupervised to try to gain an edge is like people who thought McGwire Sosa and Bonds were the only juicers. Again I’m not saying other teams took it to this level but I’m not sure it matters. Sign stealing is also something that’s been a part of the game for a long time. Yes this is different yes the commissioner made it clear this sort of thing wouldn’t be tolerated. But I see it as fundamentally different from for example gambling on games or throwing games. It’s just another example of people trying to gain an edge through slightly unconventional tactics. So I can see how as a player or coach you might’ve thought this was against the rules but not per se a horrible thing to do. Sort of like a corked bat or doctoring the baseball. Gamesmanship that you’ll keep up until you get caught and they make you stop. To that point it was a widely held belief for YEARS that the Astros were doing this sort of thing and it kind of ticket people off but was joked about more than anything And finally I’m not convinced this actually had a significant impact on the outcome of the MLB playoffs the last two years. The Astros clearly thought it wasn’t effective and abandoned it. So in the grand scheme of things even as a fan of a team who lost to the Astros and Red Sox 3 of the last 3 seasons I’m mildly ticked off but being outraged seems too far tbh

And tbh there is a lot of truth to the idea that baseball does this sort of **** and other sports dont We have a toxic culture of thinking baseball is some sacred temple of morality that needs to be protected, which is horse**** In the NFL if you paralyze someone or punch your wife or kill someone or steal signs or take steroids or destroy your cell phone or whatever, you get a 4 game suspension and people get over it because they just want to watch football... there are probably a few of those things that deserve a slightly harsher punishment but the general attitude of “meh humans are human lets move on” is much healthier tbh

Obviously there was a need to put a stop to this and punish perpetrators I think a year long suspension is enough of a punishment without saying these guys should be banned for life or are horrible human beings, which is what a lot of people are saying or implying

Or you could have a more level headed position than death penalty for shoplifting tbh I mean I do not see how this is any worse than steroids and I think we’ve all come to the conclusion that those guys should not have been black balled but sure, its the Astros and Red Sox who we all hate, so off with their heads Robespierre

I actually kind of agree it could be seen as a bush league move to leave and then rat out your teammates when you didn’t have the courage to say anything at the time (when it was benefiting you) That being said probably not an appropriate comment given her position with the Mets