AngusMcFife

Jordan is all time NBA leader in PER. Jordan has 5 of the 7 best seasons in NBA history in VORP. He led the league for 7 straight years in win shares, which no player has ever done. Try digging deeper, only using counting stats is dumb.

I'm also thinking about if an alien came to earth and we had to explain a sport to him, basketball would be relatively easy. Put the ball in the hoop, stop from the other guy putting it in the hoop. Like other ball/goal sports. But yes, dribbling is a bit tricky, so it would be more complex than soccer, hockey, lacrosse, etc.

Ali is probably the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time, although Joe Louis has a case too. If we're talking pound-for-pound then many people would disagree that Ali is the consensus GOAT. Ali has the global icon status, but other boxers in different weight classes have been as dominant or more dominant.

A sport's complexity is equivalent to the age a child can start playing it. The earlier a child can follow and participate, the simpler a sport. However, there are certain categories they all fall into. Simplest: all racing sports. Very simple: combat sports (boxing, MMA). Simple: ball goes in goal sports (soccer, basketball, hockey, golf). Moderate: ball sport with more abstract rules (baseball, cricket, tennis). Moderately complex: aesthetic sports with judges (figure skating, gymnastics, diving) - Also combat sports with points system. Complex: Football.

Boxing: Was Ali the best boxer ever, or one of the greatest who was very well known for his personality and life story? I don't think you can ding him for those late career losses, that's his Wizard's era. But how do you compare him to a perfect fighter like Mayweather? Or insane peak of Tyson? Overall, Ali is probably the best choice, a combination of greatness and fame. But not a clear cut GOAT like Jordan. 6/10 of a Jordan. Soccer: Pele is a good pick, not sure if I can evaluate how close Maradona or Messi are. Pele was the global icon. Close to GOAT status, but it can be debated. 5/10 of a Jordan. Golf: Woods had such an insanely high peak, but then a lengthly bad period. I wonder if Nicklaus is better, he has more titles and was more consistent. But Woods is the global icon, and more dominant in his peak. 7/10 of a Jordan. Swimming: I guess you can include Phelps, but Olympic sports have so few people competing in them that it is more common for someone to completely dominate the competition. There are some extremely dominant cross-country skiers and biathletes, are we including them? 3/10 of a Jordan. Tennis: Agree on Federer, even though Nadal and Djokavic might catch him in titles. Peak Federer was the best. Only Serbs and Spaniards would argue otherwise. 8/10 of a Jordan Baseball: Babe Ruth. I think this one is evident. Babe has the peak performance, transformed the sport, and won a ton of championships. He the closest to Jordan in a major team sport. 10/10 of a Jordan

Good riddance to bad rubbish. Hopefully the NFL will get smart and adopt what I've been saying all along: the ball only has to travel 8 or 9 yards before the kicking team can recover. Problem solved. Just test it out and see what gets about 15%.

Brady wasn't the best player in 2004 in 2014. Seymour, Revis, and Gronk were better players than Brady at that time. Brady played great in those games, but you are using a one game sample size to argue that he was the best player on that team. You've created a completely arbitrary metric to justify your position. Sorry I'm not dumb, I'm not going to fall for that. Here's one for you: how many QBs had a 3 year stretch where their performance dominated the rest of the QBs in the league? The list is longer than one, and Brady ain't on it.

No. Because Jordan crushes Kobe in statistical categories. I never said league awards should be valued over production and efficiency.

In 2001, Brady was definitely not the best player, though I don't know that team too well. Maybe Ty Law. In 2003, 2004, it's probably Richard Seymour. In 2014, it's Gronk or Revis. In 2016, I'll give you Brady. In 2018, I'll go with Gilmore. The irony is that when Brady was truly great, from 2007-2012, he won 0 Super Bowls.

You aren't addressing crucial parts of my argument, dude. Part of determining greatness involves: peak performance, longevity, and team success. Jordan had all three. Brady's peaks just weren't that impressive as other QBs. And they weren't close to Jordan's. I don't have to use media awards to make my point. The advanced stats back it up. Unfortunately, popular opinion is greatly swayed by team success, and many players who played on championship teams get over-rated because of that. Marino and Manning are underrated because of that. Montana and Brady are a little over-rated because of that. It cuts both ways. That's why you need to be a little skeptical of media narratives. But you are basically saying, since other people think Brady is the GOAT, he's the GOAT. Which means you have no real argument. Show me, what evidence can you cite to back up your claim? Media awards? Stats? Show me that Brady was the most dominant QB in the history of NFL, the Jordan of the NFL.

If you can show me a stretch where Brady dominated the league like Marino from 1984-1986 or Manning from 2003-2006, I think you have more of a case for Brady as GOAT. But, the fact is, his peak was not as impressive as other QBs. He was the best QB in 2007 and 2010. He had a great season in 2017 as well. But the 3 all pros reflect the fact that he was never consistently dominant like Marino or Manning. Advanced stats back it up. And yes, Jordan's peak from 1987-93 was utterly insane. Brady never did anything nearly as impressive. Other QBs came closer to it than Brady. I don't know how you are evaluating Jordan. He led the league in Win Shares and PER for 7 straight years from 1987-93. He was having some of the greatest seasons in NBA history, back to back to back.

OK, I'v figured it out. Tom Brady is the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar of the NFL. When both were at their peak (Kareem in the 1970s, Brady from 2007-2012), they were dominant, one of the best of all time. However most of their championships were won when they were not the best player, but relied on others to win the games in the playoffs (Kareem relied on Magic and other HOFers in 82, 85, 87, 88, and Brady relied on Belichick's defenses in 01, 03, 04, and 2018). The reason I bring up the 3 all-pros is because it serves a bigger purpose. It shows that Brady did NOT have a dominant peak like Jordan. I use awards but also consider advanced metrics, which back up that point. Jordan surpassed all his contemporaries. Brady, was about as good as Manning, Brees, Rodgers, or other top QBs, or worse than them. For Brady to be like Jordan, he would need to have 4 or 5 years like 2007 for me to be in that conversation. While that might seem tough to achieve, others have done it. Marino and Manning, for instance.

How can you say that that Brady is the consensus GOAT of football when Rice, LT, and Jim Brown have an argument too? Was Brady performance as dominating as Rice, LT, and Brown compared to their peers? No, and it's not even close. Brady has 3-all pros, Rice, LT, and Brown have 26 between them. 3 All-pros in 20 years should disqualify from GOAT status IMO. Brady still may have had the best career of NFL QBs, he just wasn't the clear cut best player. Jordan was both the best player and had the best career (except for Bill Russell).

Yes he was the best player in the seventies. But again, only led the league in scoring 2x, led the league in rebounding 1x. Only 1 Championship in the 70s. Great defensively, yes. But he only led 1 team to a championship as the best player (2 if you count 79-80). His greatness wasn't the driving force behind multiple championship teams, whereas Jordan was.

The other issue is that we aren't considering other positions in football. Jerry Rice was a more dominant WR than Brady was a QB. LT was a more dominant LB than Brady was a QB. Reggie White was a more dominant DE than Brady was a QB. Maybe Sammy Baugh was the Michael Jordan of football. Both were great 2 way players, offense and defense. Baugh also was a great punter.