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NFL Draft Thread Part 2 : Post-Draft Talk (UDFA Talk here as well)

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18 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Howard Jones was never really good, even 3 years ago when he had his one "good" year.     Based on what I saw of him and read from Bucs fans, he was very feast of famine, and offered literally nothing outside of being a pass rush specialist.   And what exactly has he done since then?

Im not a fan of Dupree by any means, but Ill take him over Howard Jones.

Like I said Jones has limited playing time yet has 6 sacks.  Per rush attempt, Jones is easily the better player.  Dupree just doesn’t do it for me.  He has his fans and that’s cool but the on field production is less than what I desire.

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4 hours ago, Armsteeld2 said:

Like I said Jones has limited playing time yet has 6 sacks.  Per rush attempt, Jones is easily the better player.  Dupree just doesn’t do it for me.  He has his fans and that’s cool but the on field production is less than what I desire.

Im not even close to a Dupree fan....just saying I dont see what makes Jones better.   Yes, he has more limited playing time, but there is a reason for that.     Beyond that, 5 of Jones 6 career sacks came in 2015....1 sack since.        And as stated, those 5 sacks came playing 4-3 DE.   Dupree is asked to drop into coverage alot....so its not like he is rushing the passer every time he is on the field.

Bottom line....Dupree sucks, but its not like Howard Jones has been a clearly better player by any means.      He had a nice season as a pure pass rush specialist 3 years ago, but has done nothing since.   Would I give Jones a chance to win the starting job if he were here? Sure.....but in no way do I think he would be notably better than Dupree.   Lateral move at best, IMO.

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3 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Im not even close to a Dupree fan....just saying I dont see what makes Jones better.   Yes, he has more limited playing time, but there is a reason for that.     Beyond that, 5 of Jones 6 career sacks came in 2015....1 sack since.        And as stated, those 5 sacks came playing 4-3 DE.   Dupree is asked to drop into coverage alot....so its not like he is rushing the passer every time he is on the field.

Bottom line....Dupree sucks, but its not like Howard Jones has been a clearly better player by any means.      He had a nice season as a pure pass rush specialist 3 years ago, but has done nothing since.   Would I give Jones a chance to win the starting job if he were here? Sure.....but in no way do I think he would be notably better than Dupree.   Lateral move at best, IMO.

That’s my point.  If an UDFA has similar stats to a guy who was picked in the first 22 picks then the Steelers suck at identifying pass rushers.  Who was the last productive 3-4 OLB drafted by the Steelers?

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28 minutes ago, Armsteeld2 said:

That’s my point.  If an UDFA has similar stats to a guy who was picked in the first 22 picks then the Steelers suck at identifying pass rushers.  Who was the last productive 3-4 OLB drafted by the Steelers?

What if I told you they see Dupree as productive, just not in the way that fans like? :InsertLawrenceFishbornMatrixMeme:

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11 hours ago, warfelg said:

What if I told you they see Dupree as productive, just not in the way that fans like? :InsertLawrenceFishbornMatrixMeme:

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16 hours ago, Armsteeld2 said:

That’s my point.  If an UDFA has similar stats to a guy who was picked in the first 22 picks then the Steelers suck at identifying pass rushers.  Who was the last productive 3-4 OLB drafted by the Steelers?

I dont disagree with that....at all.

Woodley is the last decent 3-4 OLB they drafted.....he was very good for a short period, then he got paid and got soft....literally and figuratively.

Lets be real though, outside of a few, have the Steelers, under Colbert, ever been that good at finding 34 OLBs?    This team had a reputation for drafting good LBs, but in the Colbert era.....outside of Porter and Woodley, we have far more busts at OLB than even remotely decent players.      Harrison was undrafted (and IMO more of a product of LeBeau's coaching than anything Colbert did) and Haggans is the only other one (and he was never better than average at best).

I dont care to go back and check right now, but the Steelers have failed miserably at OLB during the Colbert era.   A few hits at the right times made him seem better than he was.  Then there was guys like Alonzo Jackson, Bruce Davis, Jarvis Jones, Jason Worilds....and now, Bud Dupree.  

Lets just hope we dont end up putting TJ in that pile. -_-

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2 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Lets just hope we dont end up putting TJ in that pile. -_-

They will let TJ rush more since he has already proven to be much better than dupree at that. It could be the reason dupree never rushed as much too, so the coaches are onto something there.  As for that pile, I agree in that the recent FO really has failed on OLB picks.  

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8 hours ago, 3rivers said:

They will let TJ rush more since he has already proven to be much better than dupree at that. It could be the reason dupree never rushed as much too, so the coaches are onto something there.  As for that pile, I agree in that the recent FO really has failed on OLB picks.  

No. They let him rush more because we typically have had the ROLb rush more than the LOLB. It’s why Woodley wanted out. It’s why Haggans never put up gaudy numbers. It’s why Jones is even more of a bust. 

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2 hours ago, warfelg said:

No. They let him rush more because we typically have had the ROLb rush more than the LOLB. It’s why Woodley wanted out. It’s why Haggans never put up gaudy numbers. It’s why Jones is even more of a bust. 

Woodley wanted out?   He signed an extension with us and got soft.   Seems  like he only wanted out after Deebo wasnt there to hold his hand.

Haggans was average at best in every aspect of his game.

Im not really disputing your main point, but both still had ample opportunities to rush the passer, and even guys like Harrison and Porter were dropped into coverage a good bit.

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2 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Woodley wanted out?   He signed an extension with us and got soft.   Seems  like he only wanted out after Deebo wasnt there to hold his hand.

Haggans was average at best in every aspect of his game.

Im not really disputing your main point, but both still had ample opportunities to rush the passer, and even guys like Harrison and Porter were dropped into coverage a good bit.

The two articles from Woodley won't come up anymore, but he complained about dropping into coverage more and expressed a desire to rush more or to go to a place that he would be able to.

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45 minutes ago, warfelg said:

The two articles from Woodley won't come up anymore, but he complained about dropping into coverage more and expressed a desire to rush more or to go to a place that he would be able to.

LeBeau liked to disguise that way, have our best pass rushers drop into coverage 9_9 I never liked that aspect of his scheme, and can understand a player want ing to leave  because of how they are being applied on the field. Woodley would have been a very goof 4-3 DE too, but injuries and conditioning just took their toll.  Will we ever have a OLB tandem like Harrison / Woodley from 2007-2011? I doubt it, and we won't have another safety like  Troy either.  

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Woodley and Harrison played on a very different defense that has much more zone coverage and allowed them to rush the passer more.

Sounding like a broken record, I wish they would switch to a hybrid defense.  It is easier to find a pure pass rusher than one who can also drop into coverage.

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1 hour ago, jebrick said:

Woodley and Harrison played on a very different defense that has much more zone coverage and allowed them to rush the passer more.

While I don't disagree, I don't agree 100% on the last bit.  They rushed more because Lebeau brought more pressure and didn't subpackage as much.  Hence all the Timmons on a slot WR stuff.  But, even through Harrison and Porter before him dropped into coverage at times, it was not the normal thing for them.  Lebeau was very tied to bringing the pressure off the blindside, so that means if there was no DL zone dropoff, that the LOLB was dropping into coverage.

That's one thing that I see Butler has really carried over.  The LOLB is still more prone to drop into coverage than any other LOS player.  That means that the expectations of that player is going to be different.  They don't expect gaudy sack numbers, rather better coverage, and the ability to take away passing lanes.  Right now, Dupree is serving as a very solid to slightly above average coverage LB in a 3-4 defense, so I think that's why the team is happy with him.  Of course us fans see him as drafted as a pass rusher, and consider it a failure when he isn't putting up big numbers.

I'm starting to think that's why they pass up pass rushing talent almost every year.  They rather have good coverage OLB's that can rush, as opposed to good rushing OLB's that can cover.

It's stupid.  Just because I'm pointing it out doesn't mean I like it.  But I think Tomlin, Butler, and the defensive staff want it that way so they don't have to go to a specific player and give away who's rushing.

Which again is stupid.  There's certain players you know are pure pass rushers and they still get there.

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On 2018-05-18 at 8:43 AM, warfelg said:

While I don't disagree, I don't agree 100% on the last bit.  They rushed more because Lebeau brought more pressure and didn't subpackage as much.  Hence all the Timmons on a slot WR stuff.  But, even through Harrison and Porter before him dropped into coverage at times, it was not the normal thing for them.  Lebeau was very tied to bringing the pressure off the blindside, so that means if there was no DL zone dropoff, that the LOLB was dropping into coverage.

That's one thing that I see Butler has really carried over.  The LOLB is still more prone to drop into coverage than any other LOS player.  That means that the expectations of that player is going to be different.  They don't expect gaudy sack numbers, rather better coverage, and the ability to take away passing lanes.  Right now, Dupree is serving as a very solid to slightly above average coverage LB in a 3-4 defense, so I think that's why the team is happy with him.  Of course us fans see him as drafted as a pass rusher, and consider it a failure when he isn't putting up big numbers.

I'm starting to think that's why they pass up pass rushing talent almost every year.  They rather have good coverage OLB's that can rush, as opposed to good rushing OLB's that can cover.

It's stupid.  Just because I'm pointing it out doesn't mean I like it.  But I think Tomlin, Butler, and the defensive staff want it that way so they don't have to go to a specific player and give away who's rushing.

Which again is stupid.  There's certain players you know are pure pass rushers and they still get there.

I remembered in 08 in the colts game  we had many 3 man rushes and other times they dropped Harrison into coverage. This approach is terrible, and we did lose that game at home btw thanks in part to that way of playing.  I would prefer just lining up and seeing how it goes with the players. If they can't get there, then get players that can. Scheming to make up for deficiencies wrt talent only can help sometimes but isn't a consistent gauge to move forward with.  Right now because of the scheme, people can make excuses for dupree but if he was a LDE they wouldn't be able to and his stats might not be as good either.

 

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On 5/15/2018 at 10:37 AM, kurgan said:

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you @warfelg... I will correct my error...

Who has scouting reports/film on the two guys we just signed to the 90??  Prince, the OT, looks like an interesting prospect that has some interesting size stats and did something to impress the staff enough to want to take a longer look at him.  I only ask since he is 6'6" 320 and compares his play to La'el Collins.  Didn't know if anyone had a better read on him than that.

Patterson, the WR from Youngstown, came in as JAG to me.  6', 190.. 4.5.  Wonder what he did to get a shot... 

For starter; he's a really good Gunner, may be a better special team player than Heyward-Bey. What they didn't mention was Patterson came from a run-heavy scheme, he doesn't get enough targets. Yet, he produced by the amount of targets. Here's my gimmick analysis of him: 

He's really good Gunner.

He can be efficient, productive with less touches.

He has that skillset you want in a split-out receiver.

Way I see it, if Antonio Brown goes down, who replace him? Not JuJu, it'd mean we have to rip parts of the playbook and that doesn't struck me as a good plan you would like the playbook to stays the same and just increase the targets toward other players. 

Fichter struck me as the man who like versatile players and at this point I see Patterson having a better shot than Henderson.

 

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