Who plays MLB this year

[warfelg]

Just now, jebrick said:

Heyward as not an elite pass rushing DL in college.  He is ready made for what the Steelers like in DEs. 6'5 and 300lbs.

Not sure what that has to do with what I said though?  Currently he's one of the elite interior pass rushers in the league.  What would be the motivation to move him outside?

[Steeler Hitman]

20 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

There aren't very many 300Lb 4-3 DEs. Cam is one of the BEST 3-4 DEs. A healthy Watt is the only one better (imo). As a rule, 300LB people don't have much bend. They don't have much speed. They can have an explosive 1st step but not 5-10 yard speed. They can have tremendous strength and hand usage. That's how they win. That's what Cam offers. That isn't the making of a good 4-3 DE. Stop trying to shove a round peg into a square hole.  

I agree on a consistent basis, but could it not be effective here or there or against certain match-ups? I think we sometimes get too consumed with this player fits this role and that one fits that role. Outside Edge rushers are not supposed to be as good inside, but teams like the Texans have done that on occasion with success.  To me that is smart football. Find a way to get your best run stuffers in certain situations and and your best  pass rushers in others. We are often to vanilla and predictable. We were getting gashed anyway, so why not try something different?

[warfelg]

10 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I agree on a consistent basis, but could it not be effective here or there or against certain match-ups? I think we sometimes get too consumed with this player fits this role and that one fits that role. Outside Edge rushers are not supposed to be as good inside, but teams like the Texans have done that on occasion with success.  To me that is smart football. Find a way to get your best run stuffers in certain situations and and your best  pass rushers in others. We are often to vanilla and predictable. We were getting gashed anyway, so why not try something different?

That's where we get back to what I brought up.  Outside runs, audible to passes, stuff like that.

If my QB got up to the line, and saw a 4 man group of Heyward-Hargrave-Frazier/McCullers/Tuitt-Alualu/Tuitt and did not immediately go to an outside run, swing screen, RPO (if mobile), or deep pass....I would bench him ASAP.

[Armsteeld2]

5 hours ago, warfelg said:

That's where we get back to what I brought up.  Outside runs, audible to passes, stuff like that.

If my QB got up to the line, and saw a 4 man group of Heyward-Hargrave-Frazier/McCullers/Tuitt-Alualu/Tuitt and did not immediately go to an outside run, swing screen, RPO (if mobile), or deep pass....I would bench him ASAP.

This is ridiculous!  Why do you assume outside runs would work because they’re using bigger DL?  Steelers currently have Watt and Dupree yet teams easily get to the edges.  A bigger body would be harder to block and the Ravens and Patriots used to excel at keeping teams from getting to the edges with bigger players.

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, Armsteeld2 said:

This is ridiculous!  Why do you assume outside runs would work because they’re using bigger DL?  Steelers currently have Watt and Dupree yet teams easily get to the edges.  A bigger body would be harder to block and the Ravens and Patriots used to excel at keeping teams from getting to the edges with bigger players.

Speed tosses, jet sweeps, reverses.  Those guys aren't equipped to defend those kinds of runs.

[Armsteeld2]

12 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Speed tosses, jet sweeps, reverses.  Those guys aren't equipped to defend those kinds of runs.

 

12 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Speed tosses, jet sweeps, reverses.  Those guys aren't equipped to defend those kinds of runs.

Dupree and Watt couldn’t handle it either because they were out of position.  As long as you play your responsibility (gaps) you force those plays to your help defenders.  

[Steeler Hitman]

16 hours ago, warfelg said:

That's where we get back to what I brought up.  Outside runs, audible to passes, stuff like that.

If my QB got up to the line, and saw a 4 man group of Heyward-Hargrave-Frazier/McCullers/Tuitt-Alualu/Tuitt and did not immediately go to an outside run, swing screen, RPO (if mobile), or deep pass....I would bench him ASAP.

Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the mouth.  Every offensive play if executed properly is designed to gain yardage or score and every defensive play is designed to stop the offense.  I get the match-ups and the audibles stuff.  That is no reason not to try to do something different.  Many times in third and seven or eight, teams have tripped us up in base nickel and run the ball down our throats. First down and momentum.  It is time to stop doing what "supposedly will work or should work based on this 100% of the time." Definition of insanity, doing the same thing and expecting different results.  Too often that was our defense late in the year.

We couldn't stop teams from running in our base or Nickel late in the season and the play-off loss. I think it is a different game if Jacksonville is in second 12 much of the game or third and between 8 and 10. I heard the argument that we don't play our base defense enough to have a traditional NG.  It worked well the first half of the season for the most part, but teams adjusted.  We lost games to the Bears, Jags, and almost the Browns because we couldn't effectively and consistently stop the run which they used to successfully pass. We know all about this because this was old school Steelers football in the 80's and 90's with Neil and Bubby at QB and backs like Foster and Bam. We had a great defense, but we got ZERO Super Bowl wins.

All I am suggesting is to make some changes and do some things different. If that doesn't work look to do something different. Don't stay in the same squares and blocks game after game getting beat with the same personnel and same game plan. Adjust! I am not saying this is the answer, but I know what we did late in the season and how we got beat (Our defense could not make a stop or force a turnover) didn't work.

[warfelg]

2 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the mouth.  Every offensive play if executed properly is designed to gain yardage or score and every defensive play is designed to stop the offense.  I get the match-ups and the audibles stuff.  That is no reason not to try to do something different.  Many times in third and seven or eight, teams have tripped us up in base nickel and run the ball down our throats. First down and momentum.  It is time to stop doing what "supposedly will work or should work based on this 100% of the time." Definition of insanity, doing the same thing and expecting different results.  Too often that was our defense late in the year.

We couldn't stop teams from running in our base or Nickel late in the season and the play-off loss. I think it is a different game if Jacksonville is in second 12 much of the game or third and between 8 and 10. I heard the argument that we don't play our base defense enough to have a traditional NG.  It worked well the first half of the season for the most part, but teams adjusted.  We lost games to the Bears, Jags, and almost the Browns because we couldn't effectively and consistently stop the run which they used to successfully pass. We know all about this because this was old school Steelers football in the 80's and 90's with Neil and Bubby at QB and backs like Foster and Bam. We had a great defense, but we got ZERO Super Bowl wins.

All I am suggesting is to make some changes and do some things different. If that doesn't work look to do something different. Don't stay in the same squares and blocks game after game getting beat with the same personnel and same game plan. Adjust! I am not saying this is the answer, but I know what we did late in the season and how we got beat (Our defense could not make a stop or force a turnover) didn't work.

I'm not saying don't try things, but if the answer to stopping the run is putting 4 of our biggest DL players out there teams would have been doing it for a while now.

[Steeler Hitman]

33 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I'm not saying don't try things, but if the answer to stopping the run is putting 4 of our biggest DL players out there teams would have been doing it for a while now.

What is your solution to stopping the run in the base or when we go Nickel and teams gash us?

[warfelg]

17 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

What is your solution to stopping the run in the base or when we go Nickel and teams gash us?

It's not a simple we're going to fix it with the players we have, and everyone is trying to do that.

 

Problem #1 is missing Shazier.  His athleticism made up for a lot of mistakes.

Problem #2 is personnel.  We don't have a stout NT against the run that needs a double team, so that means Tuitt and Hayward could get doubled easier, Williams doesn't do well at getting off blocks and misdiagnosed plays, Dupree does not set a great edge, Watt was only in his 3rd year as an OLB.  Frazier can potentially be a better run down NT than McC or Hargrave.  That will help out a lot of things.

Problem #3 way playcalling.  We stayed in the nickle against teams that were bringing out 2 TE's, and expecting to be able to stop the run.  We went to our normal 3 DL package against teams that went wide, and the spread us out an ran it via tosses or WR screens.  We should employ more 3-3 big nickle packages.

Problem #4 is shoddy tackling.  Most our players were not great wrap up tacklers.  Some of the new blood coming in are better at that.  Bostic, Burnett, Edmunds, Allen....they are all better wrap up tacklers and not hitters.  So many times we had the ability to stop a run and Mitchell, Shazier, Williams, Davis went for the hit rather than the wrap up.  Our team needs to be better at gang tackling, especially against a guy like Fournette.  1st guy wraps up the hips and holds him up, next guy cleans up, last guy rips the ball.

All 4 of those need to change before you decide to change the scheme to stop the run.

[Steeler Hitman]

13 minutes ago, warfelg said:

It's not a simple we're going to fix it with the players we have, and everyone is trying to do that.

But none-the-less we start playing football in September with the goal of winning another Lombardi Trophy.  Everyone knows and can point out the problems, but what are the solutions?

13 minutes ago, warfelg said:

 

Problem #1 is missing Shazier.  His athleticism made up for a lot of mistakes.

We can't fix that. I pray that this kid can just have a normal life. My faith is there that he may even be able to get on the field again.  That would be amazing. There is no one else who has his speed, etc on this team to give us what he gives. It is still a problem.

13 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Problem #2 is personnel.  We don't have a stout NT against the run that needs a double team, so that means Tuitt and Hayward could get doubled easier, Williams doesn't do well at getting off blocks and misdiagnosed plays, Dupree does not set a great edge, Watt was only in his 3rd year as an OLB.  Frazier can potentially be a better run down NT than McC or Hargrave.  That will help out a lot of things.

Time will tell, but I think Frazier is a better run stopper and will have some surprising flexibility.

13 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Problem #3 way play calling.  We stayed in the nickle against teams that were bringing out 2 TE's, and expecting to be able to stop the run.  We went to our normal 3 DL package against teams that went wide, and the spread us out an ran it via tosses or WR screens.  We should employ more 3-3 big nickle packages.

Agreed and do a better job of in game adjustments. Some games we started out effective and then teams would do something different and it gave us fits at times. We do have some versatility with Davis, Burnett and Edmonds.

13 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Problem #4 is shoddy tackling.  Most our players were not great wrap up tacklers.  Some of the new blood coming in are better at that.  Bostic, Burnett, Edmunds, Allen....they are all better wrap up tacklers and not hitters.  So many times we had the ability to stop a run and Mitchell, Shazier, Williams, Davis went for the hit rather than the wrap up.  Our team needs to be better at gang tackling, especially against a guy like Fournette.  1st guy wraps up the hips and holds him up, next guy cleans up, last guy rips the ball.

Agreed. Tackling is a dying art. The reduced practices doesn't help either.

13 minutes ago, warfelg said:

All 4 of those need to change before you decide to change the scheme to stop the run.

Again, I ask how do we fix those things with the coaches and players we have?You have pointed out the problems.  There is no Shazier, so what is the solution?, etc.

[warfelg]

31 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

But none-the-less we start playing football in September with the goal of winning another Lombardi Trophy.  Everyone knows and can point out the problems, but what are the solutions?

I pointed out.  There are no quick fix solutions and that's what you're asking for.

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We can't fix that. I pray that this kid can just have a normal life. My faith is there that he may even be able to get on the field again.  That would be amazing. There is no one else who has his speed, etc on this team to give us what he gives. It is still a problem.

1 - He's not seeing the field again.  And 2 - there's no one else in the NFL that can do the things he could do.  You aren't going to 1:1 replace him.

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Time will tell, but I think Frazier is a better run stopper and will have some surprising flexibility.

Will the coaching staff give him the chance is the real question.  But outside of him giving the chance it's a matter of those other guys starting to play different.

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Agreed and do a better job of in game adjustments. Some games we started out effective and then teams would do something different and it gave us fits at times. We do have some versatility with Davis, Burnett and Edmonds.

In game adjustments is one of the most overrated fan go to things IMO.  Do you know how hard it is to suddenly change like that?  Calling different formations isn't an 'in game adjustment'.  That's just better reflecting with your defense what the offense is showing you.  That's as a play caller having a better pulse on the game.

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Agreed. Tackling is a dying art. The reduced practices doesn't help either.

Problem is plenty of other teams are doing fine with it.  It's because of the teams they draft from.  Putting value on cerebral players over athletic players.  Going with guys that play with leverage over guys that play with their body.

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Again, I ask how do we fix those things with the coaches and players we have?You have pointed out the problems.  There is no Shazier, so what is the solution?, etc.

I didn't point out problems, rather what you have to do to have the solution.  You aren't going to snap your fingers and suddenly be better.  You need all that stuff to happen to be better at the run game.  You need coaches that will put the players in better position to make the plays.  You need to get players to dedicate to wrapping up.  You need to get players to stick to their assignments.

I think a very underrated part of Shaziers game, that Burnett will help replace, is the communication.  Shazier actually did a great job at helping get players into a better position.  Williams is an idiot, and compound that with Mitchell trying to communicate but unable to tell right from left, and you will have a crap defense.

 

I see it as a problem for a lot of people that are fans.  You tend to think there are easy answers to change this out there.  That shifting this guy there, or putting that guy on the field will suddenly change things.  And it wont.  The real answer is so much more complicated and involved than that.

[Steeler Hitman]

3 hours ago, warfelg said:

I pointed out.  There are no quick fix solutions and that's what you're asking for.

Agreed. i was not asking for a quick fix nor suggesting that there was one. I was only suggesting that we try some different things with what we have to work with. 

1 - He's not seeing the field again.  And 2 - there's no one else in the NFL that can do the things he could do.  You aren't going to 1:1 replace him.

The odds are in favor of what you are saying, but again, I hope and pray differently.

Will the coaching staff give him the chance is the real question.  But outside of him giving the chance it's a matter of those other guys starting to play different.

In game adjustments is one of the most overrated fan go to things IMO. Do you know how hard it is to suddenly change like that?  Calling different formations isn't an 'in game adjustment'. That's just better reflecting with your defense what the offense is showing you.  That's as a play caller having a better pulse on the game.

I am having a great discussion with you, but no need to debate this. We will simply agree to disagree on this. Adjustments are a part of football. They are not necessarily wholesale changes. If a team that cannot effectively pass the ball is running the ball down your throat while your team is in a pass defense, the intelligent and logical thing to do is adjust your personnel and scheme. I want a team to play to their weakness and not their strengths.  I love Coach T, but Coach Billicheck is better at doing this wholesale. We have room to improve.

Problem is plenty of other teams are doing fine with it.  It's because of the teams they draft from.  Putting value on cerebral players over athletic players.  Going with guys that play with leverage over guys that play with their body.

I didn't point out problems, rather what you have to do to have the solution.  You aren't going to snap your fingers and suddenly be better. 

That is the same as I was doing. So rather than so this won't work or that won't work let's try some things in practice, walk-through's and the off season to see what we can do with the players we have to create favorable mis-matches for our defense. I agree that it is not an easy solution or something that you snap your fingers with.

You need all that stuff to happen to be better at the run game.  You need coaches that will put the players in better position to make the plays.  You need to get players to dedicate to wrapping up.  You need to get players to stick to their assignments.

Amen! Sounds like we need some more discipline in our assignments all around.

I think a very underrated part of Shaziers game, that Burnett will help replace, is the communication.  Shazier actually did a great job at helping get players into a better position.  Williams is an idiot, and compound that with Mitchell trying to communicate but unable to tell right from left, and you will have a crap defense.

I tend to agree that Williams doesn't know the defense well enough. Dirty Red is a football savant type. Unfortunately he had that shoulder injury that kept him off the field.  I think that having some football savants definitely helps. We lost a lot of that when Ryan Clark was let go. He may have lost a step or half a step athletically, but he was always in position and tried to keep his teammates in the right positions as well. There was really poor communication at times between the LB'ers and secondary.

I see it as a problem for a lot of people that are fans.  You tend to think there are easy answers to change this out there.  That shifting this guy there, or putting that guy on the field will suddenly change things.  And it wont.  The real answer is so much more complicated and involved than that.

I never said the answers were easy or they would be corrected ABC/123. That wasn't what i was implying. What is easy to do is to try some different schemes and people. Example: If the Patriots adjust how they use Gronk and what we did in the first half isn't working and Davis can't match up one on one, why keep doing the same thing? He needs to be double teamed and make someone else beat you that is less talented, if they can.  I also realize how hard it is for players and coaches at times to change. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet, admit it isn't working and try something else. That is the definition of stubborn and egotistical.

We all know our defense has some holes. We all know what they did the second half of 2017 didn't work. It most likely won't work in 2018 either. How do we fix it, adjustments and changes: Shazier is injured, Mitchell is gone, Lake is gone and Edmonds, Burnett, and Bostic are here. Those are changes. How we use them and tweak the schemes are the adjustments.

[Chieferific]

You play the traditional 3-4 with a run stuffing NT (Frazier?) He occupies 2 OL allowing you to apply pressure with Watt/Dupree and your DEs via 1 on 1 matchups. You use your SS/ILB to cover the TE/RB. You have your CBs covering WRs with over the top FS (Davis?/Edmunds?) help. This is the Base Defense. If they go 3WR you sub out a ILB for a DB (Sutton/Hilton...) and maybe Frazier with Hargrave. That maintains some resemblance of a Run Defense. If they go 4WR replace Frazier with Hargrave, Dupree with a DB and maybe the remaining ILB with Edmunds/Marcus Allen. The scheme isn't complicated. The problem is having a NT that requires to OL, OLBs that can consistently win 1 on 1, DBs that can hold coverage and a FS that can protect from the deep ball. I actually don't think we're THAT far away from having the pieces to at least compete.  

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, Chieferific said:

You play the traditional 3-4 with a run stuffing NT (Frazier?) He occupies 2 OL allowing you to apply pressure with Watt/Dupree and your DEs via 1 on 1 matchups. You use your SS/ILB to cover the TE/RB. You have your CBs covering WRs with over the top FS (Davis?/Edmunds?) help. This is the Base Defense. If they go 3WR you sub out a ILB for a DB (Sutton/Hilton...) and maybe Frazier with Hargrave. That maintains some resemblance of a Run Defense. If they go 4WR replace Frazier with Hargrave, Dupree with a DB and maybe the remaining ILB with Edmunds/Marcus Allen. The scheme isn't complicated. The problem is having a NT that requires to OL, OLBs that can consistently win 1 on 1, DBs that can hold coverage and a FS that can protect from the deep ball. I actually don't think we're THAT far away from having the pieces to at least compete.  

Very much agreed, which is my point of it's going to take some time to get this done.  We don't have that 3 down LB right now, Frazier might be the run stuffing NT but you got to be dedicated with using them, and lastly we don't have the OLB yet (Watt can be that) who can get the pinch pressure. 

But this is also why I've been wanting the base 4-3 end as a rotational guy.  So when they are in a 4 WR set (or 11 with the TE/RB flexed), you put that 4-3 base end in the 7/9T area, and you don't give up much against the run, but you got a better edge rusher than Tuitt.  Hargraves and Hayward are your interior rushers, Watt off the OLB wide 9 spot.