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2019 Draft Talk


swede700

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11 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

Sorry, but a 2nd round pick is about the best you’d do for Waynes. IMO

Teams know that if you’re shopping him, you’re not planning on bringing him back long term. They might just wait until next year to sign him, and not give anything up. 

On the flip side, letting Waynes leave is, at best, going to get the Vikings a late 3rd round comp pick in 2021. 

If you can do better than a late 3rd, you’re probably getting good value. 

Why does this have to be true? What if Rhodes is playing in his last year for us and Waynes surpasses him. Probably not very likely but injuries have been an issue for Rhodes.

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54 minutes ago, VikeManDan said:

@Uncle Buck yes, it is true. He said it during his presser yesterday.

That's hilarious.  Then again, I wonder if that means we can now expect to see Greedy Williams in purple come Thursday?  Kind of like when Rick said he had no intention of trading Percy Harvin.  Hehehe.

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3 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Why does this have to be true? What if Rhodes is playing in his last year for us and Waynes surpasses him. Probably not very likely but injuries have been an issue for Rhodes.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Waynes surpasses Rhodes.  Trae was the better player for us last year.  I've been saying it for months, and am still of the opinion that if we trade one of them it should be Rhodes.

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13 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Why does this have to be true? What if Rhodes is playing in his last year for us and Waynes surpasses him. Probably not very likely but injuries have been an issue for Rhodes.

By now, the coaches and front office guys should have a good idea about that. 

If they feel that Waynes is going to surpass Rhodes, then he’s not likely on the trading block.

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1 hour ago, RpMc said:

Yet other positions, outside of offensive line, are more likely to contribute on your special teams unit, or play in sub packages on defense or offense.  OL can play select special teams as well, but the likelihood is lower.

2018 - Hughes & O'Neill (had Hughes not been hurt, both would have been starters if you consider the nickel corner a starting slot; which I do)

2017 - No First, Cook & Elflein (Cook not a starter in name, but a heavy contributor before getting hurt)

2016 - Treadwell & Alexander (neither started)

2015 - Waynes and Kendricks (both starters)

2014 - Barr and Bridgewater (no second because of the trade up, both primary starters for the season)

2013 - Floyd, Rhodes, Patterson (no second, all large contributors)

2012 - Kalil and Smith (no second again, both starters)

2011 - Ponder and Rudolph (both primary starters for the majority of the year)

2010 - No first, Cook and Gerhart (Gerhart was a terrible pick, Cook started all but one game before getting hurt)

2009 - Harvin & Loadholt (both starters)

2008 - No First, Tyrell Johnson (yuck)

2007 - Adrian Peterson, Sidney Rice (Rice only started 4 games)

You might have misinterpreted my question, but thanks for rounding up the names. Based on these, it looks like the the answer to my question is if being generous maybe two years out of ten.

2011 - Kleinsasser actually was the primary starter at TE. He started 11 games. Visanthe Shiancoe is the other TE that could arguably be labeled the primary starter. He started 14 games. Shiancoe had both more receptions and yards than Rudolph that year too. So no, Rudolph wasn't the primary starter but they did get some use out of him (26 catches for 249 yards). And, if you want to take credit for Ponder, that is fine. We all know the truth about that situation though. Since you are the one that brought this year up as qualifying I'll allow that door to be opened for purposes of this argument.

2009 - Bernard Berrian started 15 games. Rice started 14 games. Harvin was not the primary starter his rookie year but more a gadget guy in Bill Musgrave's offense. If you count special teams, which I personally wasn't counting, you can make a case.

So if being strict, the answer is actually zero out of the ten previous years have the Vikings had both a first round and second round pick be the primary starter at their position in their rookie year.  However generous you are, this shows exactly why the team shouldn't count on both their first and second round pick to be starters this year. We see that counting on that leads to mistakes on the level of Christian Ponder (you opened the door to this point).  We don't want that. By and large, the starters in 2019 are guys that are already on the team. The draft is for needs the team projects they'll have in the future. When they fail to draft guys for those future needs they need to look into external free agents, which are almost always overpriced.

If the team gets lucky and finds two guys that prove they deserve to start in the NFL in their rookie year that is great. It does happen. Certainly, the team isn't going into the draft expecting that to happen.  If so, it would be a huge failure of the team management.

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1 hour ago, SemperFeist said:

Sorry, but a 2nd round pick is about the best you’d do for Waynes. IMO

Teams know that if you’re shopping him, you’re not planning on bringing him back long term. They might just wait until next year to sign him, and not give anything up. 

On the flip side, letting Waynes leave is, at best, going to get the Vikings a late 3rd round comp pick in 2021. 

If you can do better than a late 3rd, you’re probably getting good value. 

you can probably use him til the trade deadline and still get a second, I'm not trading him unless a sure fire starter (lindstrom for example) is there at the pick.

Edited by Heavydan85
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3 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

If he fits under the cap, and the Vikings biggest need is solid lineman, then I don't understand why the Vikings would be in a rush to make their worst position group worse.

Believe me, I want nothing more than to make the offensive line the best they can be, with quality depth.  However, as has been pointed out by members of this board, offensive line is the not the only need the Vikings have.  With tight to non-existent cap space (mainly because of Cousins contract), there needs to be a compromise approach.  Therefore, I might be willing to go without depth at an OL position in order to gain in another area....and hope and pray that the injury bug stays out of Minnesota!!

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2 hours ago, Heimdallr said:

Personally I wouldn't move Waynes for less than mid-1st value. He was a 1st round pick and has lived up to that level of play. He is young, just hitting his prime years, has elite speed, and tackles well. I see absolutely no reason to give that up for less than high-1st round value. The unknown of a draft pick is a risky return for a proven player at a premiere position.

I don't think there would be anyway to get a first round pick for Waynes or Rhodes.  Perhaps it would make more sense to shop Waynes to CB needy teams for a player or players on their existing rosters.  That might be a better way to get equal value.

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Ok Vikings friends an updated look at my draft so far in the GM Mock

On 4/15/2019 at 6:20 PM, Counselor said:

Vikings 

1.32- Chris Lindstrom OG Boston College

2.40- Erik McCoy OL TAMU

3.81- JJ Arcega-Whiteside WR Stanford

3.84- Khalen Saunders DT Western Illinois

4.120- Josh Oliver TE San Jose State

6.190- Mitch Hyatt OT Clemson

6.209- Bryce Love RB Stanford 

7.247

7.250

 

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25 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

Believe me, I want nothing more than to make the offensive line the best they can be, with quality depth.  However, as has been pointed out by members of this board, offensive line is the not the only need the Vikings have.  With tight to non-existent cap space (mainly because of Cousins contract), there needs to be a compromise approach.  Therefore, I might be willing to go without depth at an OL position in order to gain in another area....and hope and pray that the injury bug stays out of Minnesota!!

It's not about just adding OL depth. 

Last year, Elflein and Kline were terrible starters. Jones is a backup only type. That's you're starting 3 IOL. Let's say Jones is replaced. Now you're starting two bottom tier players in Elflein and Kline. Maybe I'm just pessimistic but I think it's asking a lot to expect both players to play at an acceptable level next to a rookie. 

I see other needs, don't get me wrong. DT is up there for sure. WR3 is severely lacking. TE and DE are also needs of future concern. 

I think the Vikes can go OL in the first two rounds and still adequately get talent at other spots. Grab DL and WR help in rounds 3 and 4, sign a player like Garçon at WR too if you can make it work.

Maybe Tom Johnson comes back for one year while Holmes develops. 

A position like TE may just have to wait a year while Conklin continues to develop. Rudolph, Morgan and Conklin may have to work for one more year.

Edited by vikingsrule
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1 hour ago, Virginia Viking said:

Believe me, I want nothing more than to make the offensive line the best they can be, with quality depth.  However, as has been pointed out by members of this board, offensive line is the not the only need the Vikings have.  With tight to non-existent cap space (mainly because of Cousins contract), there needs to be a compromise approach.  Therefore, I might be willing to go without depth at an OL position in order to gain in another area....and hope and pray that the injury bug stays out of Minnesota!!

I disagree that Cousins is the reason for this. His cap hit, while precedent setting, is pretty much the standard for a veteran franchise QB contract. Whether or not he's a franchise QB is sort of irrelevant for this discussion. The Vikings have paid a lot of really good players that they developed at or just under market value which has started to catch up with them (Smith, Hunter, Griffen, Kendricks, Barr, Rhodes, Diggs, Theilen). At any rate, they are stuck with Cousins, and in order to make this thing work now, they have to protect him. Getting rid of the best or second best OL on a bad line isn't making anything better. Especially not to increase depth elsewhere. 

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41 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

I disagree that Cousins is the reason for this. His cap hit, while precedent setting, is pretty much the standard for a veteran franchise QB contract. Whether or not he's a franchise QB is sort of irrelevant for this discussion. The Vikings have paid a lot of really good players that they developed at or just under market value which has started to catch up with them (Smith, Hunter, Griffen, Kendricks, Barr, Rhodes, Diggs, Theilen). At any rate, they are stuck with Cousins, and in order to make this thing work now, they have to protect him. Getting rid of the best or second best OL on a bad line isn't making anything better. Especially not to increase depth elsewhere. 

I'm not sure there are any individual OL that will drastically transform the group. I'd rather get two good OL prospects in the top 50 than having to go all in on a trade to get Taylor or Williams, guess I don't see them as blue chip prospects. The OL has multiple holes to fill and I think trading up would be costly. 

Trading down could be just as costly if there is an OL run. I'm inclined to stay put above all other options.

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