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2019 Draft Talk


swede700

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2 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

So they would have won a super bowl with a rookie guard is what you are saying? Additionally, I highly doubt that O’Neill would be a Viking if they had selected Hernandez. I’m taking the tackle every time.

I’m not against drafting lineman or fixing the line. You know my stance on this. Improve the scouting, improve the scheme, improve the coaching. Then we can talk about misuse of draft capital.

An intern isn’t going to be an effective manager the first day on the job. He probably won’t ever become a very good manger without someone to show him how to do things the right way. 

The Vikings were 13-3 last year in large part because Sparano and Shurmer put the OL in a positions to succeed.

Sigh. No. I'm saying they have no chance without fixing the OL. Is that even in debate? That's literally what I said. I never said they would win, I said they couldn't without it. Necessary, not sufficient. 

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14 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

So, your solution is for the Vikings to use additional resources and trade up for the same reach? 

No.  You misunderstood me. Out of the 4 or 5 linemen to be taken prior to our pick at 18, I imagine 1 or 2 are actually worthy of being picked in the 1st round.  Those are the players to target...if possible.  If not, well...the Vikings are screwed for another season in my opinion.

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11 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

So they would have won a super bowl with a rookie guard is what you are saying? Additionally, I highly doubt that O’Neill would be a Viking if they had selected Hernandez. I’m taking the tackle every time.

I’m not against drafting lineman or fixing the line. You know my stance on this. Improve the scouting, improve the scheme, improve the coaching. Then we can talk about misuse of draft capital.

An intern isn’t going to be an effective manager the first day on the job. He probably won’t ever become a very good manger without someone to show him how to do things the right way. 

The Vikings were 13-3 last year in large part because Sparano and Shurmer put the OL in a positions to succeed.

But the offensive line got man handled by the Saints and the Eagles in the playoffs.  Why?  Not coaching...not scheming...it was because their defensive line talent was much better than the Vikings offensive line talent. 

Of course, you have to have better scouting, coaching and scheming...but in the NFL, you also need to have a more than a mediocre at best offensive line...if not that...you need a quarterback who is going to carry the offense.  Guess what...the Vikings don't have one of those!  I'm not satisfied with reaching the playoffs, nor am I satisfied with making it all the way to the NFCG!  In my mind, anything less than a Lombardi Trophy residing in Minneapolis at the end of the season is a failure.  The only way for Kirk to have a chance of leading the Vikings offense past into the playoffs is if he gets maximum pass protection and that the run blocking is so good that it allows for the running game to be a threat to scheme against.

I know that some on this board don't think that the Vikings need a robust running attack in a pass happy league.  This Vikings team, with this quarterback, absolutely has to have a great running game.  We have a stud starting tailback when he's not injured.  We need the guys in front to open more lanes and be effective at the next level of the defense in order to win in the playoffs, appear in the Super Bowl and beat the AFC Champion.

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9 hours ago, PrplChilPill said:

Sigh. No. I'm saying they have no chance without fixing the OL. Is that even in debate? That's literally what I said. I never said they would win, I said they couldn't without it. Necessary, not sufficient. 

You said "add two starting guards". As if throwing players at it alone is the magic solution. There has been something wrong with the Vikings' line play, and not being able to develop the players that they have drafted. My fundamental disagreement is the idea that resource allocation is the root of the problem. This has been debunked time and time again. Fix the coaching, fix the scouting, the player development will follow. That's how teams are able to find productive late round players. It isn't luck, and good OL are not always built with highly drafted players.

 

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1 hour ago, Virginia Viking said:

But the offensive line got man handled by the Saints and the Eagles in the playoffs.  Why?  Not coaching...not scheming...it was because their defensive line talent was much better than the Vikings offensive line talent. 

Of course, you have to have better scouting, coaching and scheming...but in the NFL, you also need to have a more than a mediocre at best offensive line...if not that...you need a quarterback who is going to carry the offense.  Guess what...the Vikings don't have one of those!  I'm not satisfied with reaching the playoffs, nor am I satisfied with making it all the way to the NFCG!  In my mind, anything less than a Lombardi Trophy residing in Minneapolis at the end of the season is a failure.  The only way for Kirk to have a chance of leading the Vikings offense past into the playoffs is if he gets maximum pass protection and that the run blocking is so good that it allows for the running game to be a threat to scheme against.

I know that some on this board don't think that the Vikings need a robust running attack in a pass happy league.  This Vikings team, with this quarterback, absolutely has to have a great running game.  We have a stud starting tailback when he's not injured.  We need the guys in front to open more lanes and be effective at the next level of the defense in order to win in the playoffs, appear in the Super Bowl and beat the AFC Champion.

The Vikings have brought in free agents, made trades, traded up in the draft, and drafted depth in later rounds to try to improve the line. What leads you to believe that the results will be any different with out a fundamental change in the way the OL position is handled once the players are in house? The Vikings have either been drafting the wrong players, or have not been coaching/developing/utilizing the talents of the players they have. Now we want them to use the majority of their draft capital on a position that they haven't been able to utilize effectively in years?

I'm not saying don't draft OL. If there is a can't miss guard (no idea if there is one, haven't really followed draft prospects), by all means take him. But reaching for a guy with #18 because "we need a starting guard" is a terrible idea. When that player flames out will people advocating for drafting OL still be satisfied with the pick?

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8 hours ago, wcblack34 said:

Honestly, I'm not sure that they would have won the Super Bowl with Tyron Smith, Quentin Nelson, Travis Frederick, and two other studs on the line, because I don't think Cousins has it in him. 

Agreed. Put an all world OL around Cousins, I don't trust him to elevate his performance when it matters. Even the greatest of OLs will give up pressures, and that is when Cousins is proven to make mistakes.

Having an elite defense will do more for Cousins than having an elite OL. 

As ive said, an improved OL will benefit the run game more than it will Cousins.

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3 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

an improved OL will benefit the run game more than it will Cousins.

They aren’t mutually exclusive. 

Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, etc. Every quarterback is better when they have a capable running game to pair with. 

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2 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

The Vikings have brought in free agents, made trades, traded up in the draft, and drafted depth in later rounds to try to improve the line. What leads you to believe that the results will be any different with out a fundamental change in the way the OL position is handled once the players are in house? The Vikings have either been drafting the wrong players, or have not been coaching/developing/utilizing the talents of the players they have. Now we want them to use the majority of their draft capital on a position that they haven't been able to utilize effectively in years?

I'm not saying don't draft OL. If there is a can't miss guard (no idea if there is one, haven't really followed draft prospects), by all means take him. But reaching for a guy with #18 because "we need a starting guard" is a terrible idea. When that player flames out will people advocating for drafting OL still be satisfied with the pick?

You are misunderstanding me.  Of course we need to do better scouting, coaching, and scheming the offensive line.  Those should be easier problems to address. Yet, the simple truth is that we need an upgrade of talent along the whole  line.  O'Neill is the only present starter that seems to have a bright future. 

Where are we to find this talent?  We have discussed over and over again...and I agree...that better than average offensive linemen rarely if ever make it to free agency.  We can still use free agency dollars to acquire average at best offensive linemen ...and maybe we run across someone that another team has given up on too early!  I think we should be doing that, for depth, if nothing else.  But, getting a better than average lineman in free agency is not very likely, would you not agree?  We've also discussed making a trade.  However, the cost of trading for someone who is above average would probably be creating another problem while trying to solve the OLine problem.  That leaves the draft to possibly find better than average talent.  But there are two things that concern all of us about this years draft. (1) There is very little offensive line depth in this draft; and (2) college linemen are always a risk in the pros because the pros don't run the wide open spread offenses which require a different blocking scheme than the pros require.

I believe, except for possibly O'Neill, the Vikings don't presently have the offensive line talent to win a Super Bowl.  Kirk Cousins deficiencies in 2018 showed just how much the Vikings need to improve the line.  The only way I see this happening...even thought it certainly is a risk...is through trading up in the draft this year, and hope and pray that a rough gem can be gotten through free agency.

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So the proposal is to reach for a players in a less talented draft class and put them into an already less than ideal situation?

I'm not misunderstanding you. I think it is a terrible idea to be dead set on using high draft capital in a bad OL class and expect different results than we've been seeing.

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23 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

So the proposal is to reach for a players in a less talented draft class and put them into an already less than ideal situation?

I'm not misunderstanding you. I think it is a terrible idea to be dead set on using high draft capital in a bad OL class and expect different results than we've been seeing.

I agree. I don't want to draft an OL just to draft one at 18. Value must always be considered but if value is equal, I hope they lean OL.

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1 hour ago, JDBrocks said:

So the proposal is to reach for a players in a less talented draft class and put them into an already less than ideal situation?

I'm not misunderstanding you. I think it is a terrible idea to be dead set on using high draft capital in a bad OL class and expect different results than we've been seeing.

Please tell me, then, your specific plans for improving talent along the offensive line?  Do what we've always done?  That way we are guaranteed to always get the same result that we've been seeing.

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wow. That's exactly what I've proposed that they DON'T do. 

My hope is that Stefanski and the new OL coach are able to maximize the talent of the players currently on the roster. I don't know what (if any) changes have been made in the types of players that they are scouting/skill sets they are looking for. If the right OL is available and fits the new offensive scheme, by all means, I hope they draft that player. If the board falls in a way that there is a highly rated defensive lineman or safety that falls in their lap, I hope they pull the trigger. Same with TE or WR. Making up your mind in December that it's "trade up in the 1st for an OL or bust" is a terrible strategy. period.

If they have to trade up for an OL, which guy are they trading up for? Which player are they going to take that is going to make an immediate impact that they absolutely can't miss out on?

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