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1 hour ago, vikingsrule said:

Reach as in taking Brian O'Neill in round one and missing out on Hughes? Because that's what you're suggesting based on the Vikings board and what they were looking for in a ZBS Olineman.

Last year was last year.  I will not rehash what the Vikings should've/could've done in 2018.  I will see going forward...I am glad O'Neill was drafted.  We still don't know exactly what we have with Mike Hughes, especially after his injury.  He was looking promising.

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58 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I don't want to defend the Vikings coaches too much, but when it comes to offensive linemen have we seen offensive lineman leaving and looking particularly good anywhere else in the league? I don't think we have since Donald Penn. Mike Remmers is probably the guy that looked next best after leaving the Vikings.

The primary problem is the team isn't properly valuing linemen and/or investing enough resources into acquiring offensive linemen.

The team needs better players.

The coaching may be an issue but given that we don't see TJ Clemmings, David Yankey, or WIllie Beavers looking good anywhere else in the league has me severely doubting any assertion that the coaching is the problem and it certainly does not look like the main problem at this point. Current coaches were not even with the team when Penn and Remmers were cut.

The coaches got about as much out of Tom Compton as I believe possible. The team needs better players and they are going to have to invest serious resources to get them. Whether picking at 18 or trading up or down the team should be targeting an offensive lineman as their first pick in the draft. And no, that isn't a suggesting to reach. That is a suggestion to know the value of and draft a lineman at a point in the draft that lines up. Value the guys correctly though so that they don't get surprised by a guy getting drafted earlier than they thought. The team has not been properly valuing offensive linemen for a long time.

I agree.

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Ok. Without adding more from my own sense of frustration... Here is where we stand, I think, and what we can agree on, as I hear it.

1. Vikings front office needs to be MUCH better at evaluating offensive line talent.  I don't know how easy this is to correct...but I suspect it means that a couple of folks at the top of the decision tree will have to swallow their pride and shake up the evaluation process as a first step.

2. The Vikings have not "ignored" the offensive line in either the draft or free agency in the past.  They have invested money and time in bringing in players; but, there has been very little return on investment.

3.  The Vikings had a below average offensive line in 2018.  Some expected that it would've improved over 2017, but that did not materialize.  Was this completely due to Sparano's death and JDF's offensive strategy?  It had an impact, but it wasn't the total culprit.

4. Kirk Cousin's "style" of play did not help the offensive line.

 

My remaining questions/concerns:

1. How much longer does this era of Minnesota Vikings have to win a championship?

2. How much longer does Zimmer legitimately have to turn the Vikings lack of playoff success around?  (Unless you reach the Super Bowl...you didn't have playoff success, IMO.)

3. How much longer will Thielen, Diggs, Hunter, Smith, Waynes, etc...give the powers that be their patience before there are rumblings in the locker room?  Demands to be released, traded, etc..?

4. If the window is as narrow as I think, what needs to be done to improve the play along the offensive line that will give the Vikings a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl this coming season? For I truly believe that this team will only go as far as how the offensive line plays...especially in the playoffs...if they get there.

5. Is the Zone Blocking Scheme worthy of maintaining?  I'm starting to have my doubts.  It seems that it's going the way of the Tampa 2 defense...or will shortly.

 

I realize that none of us really have the answer to these questions and concerns.  I am sensing, however, that improving the line needs to occur with some urgency.

Edited by Virginia Viking

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4 hours ago, Virginia Viking said:

 

My remaining questions/concerns:

1. How much longer does this era of Minnesota Vikings have to win a championship?

2. How much longer does Zimmer legitimately have to turn the Vikings lack of playoff success around?  (Unless you reach the Super Bowl...you didn't have playoff success, IMO.)

3. How much longer will Thielen, Diggs, Hunter, Smith, Waynes, etc...give the powers that be their patience before there are rumblings in the locker room?  Demands to be released, traded, etc..?

4. If the window is as narrow as I think, what needs to be done to improve the play along the offensive line that will give the Vikings a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl this coming season? For I truly believe that this team will only go as far as how the offensive line plays...especially in the playoffs...if they get there.

5. Is the Zone Blocking Scheme worthy of maintaining?  I'm starting to have my doubts.  It seems that it's going the way of the Tampa 2 defense...or will shortly.

 

I realize that none of us really have the answer to these questions and concerns.  I am sensing, however, that improving the line needs to occur with some urgency.

I haven't been keeping tabs on the discussions here but here's my thoughts on your questions:

#1 I think if the job doesn't get done by the end of Kirk's contract, it's not going to happen with this group of core players. We're going to be starting from ground zero at QB and core players like Smith, Linval, Richardson, & Rhodes are going to be around 32-33 by the time 2021 comes around. Thielen will be 31. You figure even a rookie QB will take a year or two to develop (if he even works out) so all of a sudden, we're at 2023 and those guys are probably gone or playing in reduced roles.

#2. If Zimmer misses the playoffs or doesn't win a playoff game, there's no reason to extend his contract. 2 playoff appearances and 1 playoff win in 6 seasons? Not good enough.

#3. I don't think this team has many players, if any, who are the type to start drama. They're all making great money and the one who isn't, Thielen, will probably get a good pay increase soon. I think a coaching change happens before that happens (if it would happen) which would revitalize the team if 2019 proves to be a failure.

#4. It comes down to finding talent. Draft....free agency. Can't miss on anyone now. It's do or die.

#5. Our blocking scheme should be the one that best suits the players we have. I'd rather adjust our scheme to the players rather than trying to find players who fit our scheme which may mean taking lesser talent or flat out passing on them because they don't fit the scheme.

Edited by Vikes_Bolts1228

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On 1/11/2019 at 2:31 PM, Virginia Viking said:

Ok. Without adding more from my own sense of frustration... Here is where we stand, I think, and what we can agree on, as I hear it.

1. Vikings front office needs to be MUCH better at evaluating offensive line talent.  I don't know how easy this is to correct...but I suspect it means that a couple of folks at the top of the decision tree will have to swallow their pride and shake up the evaluation process as a first step.

2. The Vikings have not "ignored" the offensive line in either the draft or free agency in the past.  They have invested money and time in bringing in players; but, there has been very little return on investment.

3.  The Vikings had a below average offensive line in 2018.  Some expected that it would've improved over 2017, but that did not materialize.  Was this completely due to Sparano's death and JDF's offensive strategy?  It had an impact, but it wasn't the total culprit.

4. Kirk Cousin's "style" of play did not help the offensive line.

 

My remaining questions/concerns:

1. How much longer does this era of Minnesota Vikings have to win a championship?

2. How much longer does Zimmer legitimately have to turn the Vikings lack of playoff success around?  (Unless you reach the Super Bowl...you didn't have playoff success, IMO.)

3. How much longer will Thielen, Diggs, Hunter, Smith, Waynes, etc...give the powers that be their patience before there are rumblings in the locker room?  Demands to be released, traded, etc..?

4. If the window is as narrow as I think, what needs to be done to improve the play along the offensive line that will give the Vikings a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl this coming season? For I truly believe that this team will only go as far as how the offensive line plays...especially in the playoffs...if they get there.

5. Is the Zone Blocking Scheme worthy of maintaining?  I'm starting to have my doubts.  It seems that it's going the way of the Tampa 2 defense...or will shortly.

 

I realize that none of us really have the answer to these questions and concerns.  I am sensing, however, that improving the line needs to occur with some urgency.

Why is the window with this group almost over?  Should be atleast another 5 years probably 6 or 7.  Runningbacks are typically the only position to start to decline or drop off at the age of 30 otherwise you typically assume 35 is when the decline starts.  Just curious as to why you think theres only 1 year left with this group

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On 1/11/2019 at 12:25 PM, vikingsrule said:

Reach as in taking Brian O'Neill in round one and missing out on Hughes? Because that's what you're suggesting based on the Vikings board and what they were looking for in a ZBS Olineman.

But you assume we wouldn't have gotten a similar player in O'Neill's spot. Heck, we may have gotten Hughes. There were 5 CBs taken after Hughes. Perhaps he's still there (based on team preference). Perhaps we end up with Josh Jackson. 

It's unlikely, but based on how the roster looked last year before the draft, Hughes was a luxury pick. Based on our units this year, Hughes was still a luxury pick. That doesn't mean he won't be a good luxury pick, but I think there are few who could fault the Vikings "reaching" for their O-lineman of choice at #30. 

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All in on the Easton Stick bandwagon. 

Im looking forward to the East/West Shrine game reports from this week. 

And Adam Zimmer will get a first hand look. 

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On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 11:31 AM, Virginia Viking said:

Ok. Without adding more from my own sense of frustration... Here is where we stand, I think, and what we can agree on, as I hear it.

1. Vikings front office needs to be MUCH better at evaluating offensive line talent.  I don't know how easy this is to correct...but I suspect it means that a couple of folks at the top of the decision tree will have to swallow their pride and shake up the evaluation process as a first step.

2. The Vikings have not "ignored" the offensive line in either the draft or free agency in the past.  They have invested money and time in bringing in players; but, there has been very little return on investment.

3.  The Vikings had a below average offensive line in 2018.  Some expected that it would've improved over 2017, but that did not materialize.  Was this completely due to Sparano's death and JDF's offensive strategy?  It had an impact, but it wasn't the total culprit.

4. Kirk Cousin's "style" of play did not help the offensive line.

 

My remaining questions/concerns:

1. How much longer does this era of Minnesota Vikings have to win a championship?

2. How much longer does Zimmer legitimately have to turn the Vikings lack of playoff success around?  (Unless you reach the Super Bowl...you didn't have playoff success, IMO.)

3. How much longer will Thielen, Diggs, Hunter, Smith, Waynes, etc...give the powers that be their patience before there are rumblings in the locker room?  Demands to be released, traded, etc..?

4. If the window is as narrow as I think, what needs to be done to improve the play along the offensive line that will give the Vikings a legitimate chance to win the Super Bowl this coming season? For I truly believe that this team will only go as far as how the offensive line plays...especially in the playoffs...if they get there.

5. Is the Zone Blocking Scheme worthy of maintaining?  I'm starting to have my doubts.  It seems that it's going the way of the Tampa 2 defense...or will shortly.

 

I realize that none of us really have the answer to these questions and concerns.  I am sensing, however, that improving the line needs to occur with some urgency.

Since Childress was HC and the Triangle of Authority was calling the draft, what offensive linemen have been drafted that have really worked?  Kalil had one good year.  Sullivan was great for the Vikes and has been doing well since leaving years ago.  Phil Loadholt was solid to me, and I think Elflein will be a Pro-Bowler.  Jury's still out on O'Neill, Collins (UDFA), and Isidora.  I do like Hill and Easton though talent can be drafted that makes them expendable.

I think that means there were at least 9 or 10 wiffs on drafted OL in 10 years.  It means something if just 3 of those would've cemented their position for even 6 years.  The only 1st or 2nd Rd Olineman the Vikes have drafted since 1985 that really didn't live up to expectations was Marcus Johnson in 2005, Ryan Cook and Kalil.  So, make the pick for a stud OG this year and keep next to Elflein for the next 10, oh and add O'Neill at the outside . . . 60% is a better start.

Three years ago, Sparano was a dumpster fire with the O-Line, and then he hit magic in 2017.  I believe part of that is the guys buying into his coaching -- and having a smart center.  

Onto answering the questions:

1.  This core of players has 2 more years in my opinion.  Age and cap hits will start happening in 2020 and 2021 . . . Plus, Zimmer hitched his wagon to Cousins.  The Wilfs might extend him and Spielman after 2019 on a year-by-year basis, or they may blow it up and bring in a Mike McCarthy depending on 2019 goes.

2.  I love Zimmer and his approach to the game, the team and the media.  I do hope he gets this team to the SB and wins it before Cousins' contract is up.  that's probably a pipe dream, but if he can't get this roster to win with Cousins, he's toast.

3.  Do the players on this roster sit around and sing nursery rhymes?  No . . . doubt it.  Each of them has an agent and a gang their salaries provide for.  Winning heals all ills . . . they know they have to do that . . . dropping a pass, missing a tackle, committing a penalty . . . everyone one of the stars committed something like that this year where it cost the team a win at one time or another.  I think they kept dirty laundry in house very well and it'll stay that way.

4.  As I said before . . . the window is 2 years, or it could get ugly around TCO Performance Center for a few years.

5.  ZBS, Tampa 2, Spread . . . all terms of variations of football schemes.  The double-A gap blitz is all the rage with Zimm, and it's good to see he's had an impact on the game.  A team can call their offense or defense tootie frutie for all I care as long as the players execute their assignments and the team wins the games.  Sometimes though, a gameplan with a certain scheme is doomed for failure.  For me, it seems like the Vikes plan an AFC 3-4, they get stymied and lose.  Part of winning is figuring those out and moving your chess pieces to give your guy the best chance to beat his assignment. 

Edited by ArcticNorseman

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12 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

All in on the Easton Stick bandwagon. 

Im looking forward to the East/West Shrine game reports from this week. 

And Adam Zimmer will get a first hand look. 

Gross. If this team spends a draft pick on NDSU, that will be the final straw for me. Cleveland 4-lyfe...

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On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 5:42 AM, Boda said:

Why is the window with this group almost over?  Should be atleast another 5 years probably 6 or 7.  Runningbacks are typically the only position to start to decline or drop off at the age of 30 otherwise you typically assume 35 is when the decline starts.  Just curious as to why you think theres only 1 year left with this group

2020 there will be some CAP numbers to reckon with.  I think that's the year when Cousin's contract will most likely be an drag on improving the team.  I question whether or not Zimmer or Spielman will be around after 2019.  Thielen might find FA attractive if he's not extended now with a healthy raise, yet...where's that money going to come from?  They might franchise him before he hit's free agency, but that will cost a chunk of change as well...where is the money coming from?  Smith had an off year this year...is it the beginning of a decline?  Without unit mates with the effectiveness of 2917 level of Joseph and Griffen, teams will concentrate their attention on Hunter and his production will go down.

In some ways, worst case scenario, the Vikings have to win a Championship in 2019.  If we dump some resources into the offensive line getting talent, improving coaching and scheming, then there will inevitably be fewer resources to "re-arm" the defensive line.  If we improve along the defensive line, as is needed, then we go with the same level of talent along the offensive line.  In other words, I seriously doubt that there's capital to improve both lines at this point.  If we don't win a championship, and worse, don't compete in the NFC North, then good free agents will not sign in Minnesota, our own free agents will not resign, there will be a coaching carousel, a volcano will erupt in Minneapolis, house cats will develop a taste for human flesh, and worse of all men will start wearing leisure suites again!!  It will be the end of the world as we know it!! 

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8 hours ago, wcblack34 said:

Gross. If this team spends a draft pick on NDSU, that will be the final straw for me. Cleveland 4-lyfe...

Favoring one team or ruling out one college team as a source in the draft is not the best winning strategy. It is even poorer for your chances of success when the team you would blindly not accept a player from was the 15-0 national champion and the champion seven out of the last eight years. Of course, if winning isn't your primary goal...

For my part, I wanted the Vikings to draft Dallas Goadert last year. He gave the Thundering Herd problems. I would be happy to accept any other good players that had the misfortune of playing for the Jackrabbits too. 

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1 hour ago, Virginia Viking said:

2020 there will be some CAP numbers to reckon with.  I think that's the year when Cousin's contract will most likely be an drag on improving the team.  I question whether or not Zimmer or Spielman will be around after 2019.  Thielen might find FA attractive if he's not extended now with a healthy raise, yet...where's that money going to come from?  They might franchise him before he hit's free agency, but that will cost a chunk of change as well...where is the money coming from?  Smith had an off year this year...is it the beginning of a decline?  Without unit mates with the effectiveness of 2917 level of Joseph and Griffen, teams will concentrate their attention on Hunter and his production will go down.

In some ways, worst case scenario, the Vikings have to win a Championship in 2019.  If we dump some resources into the offensive line getting talent, improving coaching and scheming, then there will inevitably be fewer resources to "re-arm" the defensive line.  If we improve along the defensive line, as is needed, then we go with the same level of talent along the offensive line.  In other words, I seriously doubt that there's capital to improve both lines at this point.  If we don't win a championship, and worse, don't compete in the NFC North, then good free agents will not sign in Minnesota, our own free agents will not resign, there will be a coaching carousel, a volcano will erupt in Minneapolis, house cats will develop a taste for human flesh, and worse of all men will start wearing leisure suites again!!  It will be the end of the world as we know it!! 

It's really too early to say that there's going to be a cap drag.  There's always ways to find more money, particularly if it's just for one year until Cousins' contract comes off of the books.  The team can shed almost $22M in accounted for cap space with terminating the contracts of Everson Griffen and Riley Reiff if their play doesn't match their pay.  It's likely that Mike Remmers $6.7M in cap hit isn't on the books for that year either.  Plus, there's every indication that the cap will continue to rise; it's increased by about $10M every year since 2013.  Good drafting and UDFA signings on the defense will continue to keep the unit clicking baring a major shift in the way they've drafted and developed on that side of the ball.  Undrafted free agents and 7th round picks that will push for time or start next year.

Anthony Harris
Jayron Kearse
Holton Hill
Eric Wilson
Tashaun Bower
Stephen Weatherly (seems to be following a similar arc to those who have come before... Robison, Griffen, Hunter... rotation piece to solid starter, to, hopefully, impact player)

The improvement is going to have to come in our ability to draft and develop the offensive line.  This team has some excellent skill players, perhaps one of the top groups in terms of "talent" in the league, but building from the outside in has left them scrambling.

Edited by RpMc

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1 hour ago, Cearbhall said:

Favoring one team or ruling out one college team as a source in the draft is not the best winning strategy. It is even poorer for your chances of success when the team you would blindly not accept a player from was the 15-0 DIVISION II national champion and the champion seven out of the last eight years. Of course, if winning isn't your primary goal...

FIFY. (And yes, I realize that the NCAA gives it the BS designation of Div-I FCS, but that's just a fancy way of saying Div-II).

And Stick is no Carson Wentz. 

 

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It's an offense first league. Fix the offense. Use draft capital to fix the offense. Or, imo, they won't do much next year either. Not late round picks, early, multiple, picks. 

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