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2019 Draft Talk


swede700

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29 minutes ago, swede700 said:

No, you don't.

Sure, if there is another QB there that you also believe in. If you don't have a franchise QB, and the Vikings do not, you take a QB in the draft if you believe he is the complete package -- if there are no questions left that haven't been answered positively.

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5 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Sure, if there is another QB there that you also believe in. If you don't have a franchise QB, and the Vikings do not, you take a QB in the draft if you believe he is the complete package -- if there are no questions left that haven't been answered positively.

I agree, you should always look at QBs if you don't have a young franchise QB. I tend to believe that the Vikes view Cousins as a franchise QB so I am not sure the Vikes are going to spend much effort looking at the position this year.

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6 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

I agree, you should always look at QBs if you don't have a young franchise QB. I tend to believe that the Vikes view Cousins as a franchise QB so I am not sure the Vikes are going to spend much effort looking at the position this year.

And I don't think they need to this year.  As I've iterated previously, you have to give Cousins 1 more year before you determine whether he's in the plans for the future or not.  And I said that before this season, as I fully expected this season to be a mixed bag (which it was) because he was playing with new players and with a new coordinator.  If he has another mixed bag season in 2019-20, then you consider drafting a QB in the first couple of rounds in the 2020 draft as a potential replacement. There is no upside to spending a high pick on a QB this year, especially when you have higher priority needs at other positions.   

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44 minutes ago, swede700 said:

No, you don't.

the chiefs traded from the 27th pick of the first round and added a 3rd and future 1st to go up to #10 to draft patrick mahomes, despite having alex smith. the move obviously carried risk but i think it has more than paid off for the chiefs.

 

i might just be thinking this way because i really question kirk's ability to move the ball when things go wrong (he has very little improvisational ability) and i don't believe he has the kind of leadership ability a franchise QB needs. when you have a reasonable chance to get that kind of QB i think you have to take it, because they make a huge difference.

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10 minutes ago, whitehops said:

the chiefs traded from the 27th pick of the first round and added a 3rd and future 1st to go up to #10 to draft patrick mahomes, despite having alex smith. the move obviously carried risk but i think it has more than paid off for the chiefs.

 

i might just be thinking this way because i really question kirk's ability to move the ball when things go wrong (he has very little improvisational ability) and i don't believe he has the kind of leadership ability a franchise QB needs. when you have a reasonable chance to get that kind of QB i think you have to take it, because they make a huge difference.

Huge difference between the situations of Cousins and Smith.   Smith had already been in KC for 4 years, so they knew what they had in him, and he was entering the last year of his deal when the Chiefs made the move up.  Cousins still has 2 more years on his contract and has only been here for 1 year.  

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1 minute ago, swede700 said:

Huge difference between the situations of Cousins and Smith.   Smith had already been in KC for 4 years, so they knew what they had in him, and he was entering the last year of his deal when the Chiefs made the move up.  Cousins still has 2 more years on his contract and has only been here for 1 year.  

Perhaps I am just misremembering, but didn't Mahomes sit on the bench for an entire year after being drafted and then the Chiefs traded Smith away? If they traded him after the year that kind of implies to me they still had him under their contractual control for more than just one year when they drafted Mahomes.

I agree that the team could justify passing on a QB that they believe in completely if they already believe in Cousins. It is hard to imagine they believe in Cousins like that though. I mean, they watched the same games as me. Cousins is okay but he isn't any better than Alex Smith was for the Chiefs.

It is mind boggling to me that you don't think there is any upside to drafting a franchise QB this year. The upside is immense. It is not possible to have higher priority needs so I can't agree with that statement. There are no needs that are higher priority than having a franchise QB ever. Not ever.

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3 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Perhaps I am just misremembering, but didn't Mahomes sit on the bench for an entire year after being drafted and then the Chiefs traded Smith away? If they traded him after the year that kind of implies to me they still had him under their contractual control for more than just one year when they drafted Mahomes.

I agree that the team could justify passing on a QB that they believe in completely if they already believe in Cousins. It is hard to imagine they believe in Cousins like that though. I mean, they watched the same games as me. Cousins is okay but he isn't any better than Alex Smith was for the Chiefs.

It is mind boggling to me that you don't think there is any upside to drafting a franchise QB this year. The upside is immense. It is not possible to have higher priority needs so I can't agree with that statement. There are no needs that are higher priority than having a franchise QB ever. Not ever.

Then we will agree to disagree, because there are significantly higher needs than drafting a guy who "potentially" could be a franchise QB, when you have a guy on the roster, who is guaranteed to be here for 2 more years.  There isn't an immense upside to drafting a QB in 2019 when you don't have enough good players on the OL to protect the guy you have under center right now.  By taking that guy in 2019, then you run the risk of injuring Cousins in 2019 and forcing in a guy who probably shouldn't play yet.  

As far as his contract, while it is true that he still had the 2018 year left, the likelihood was that he was going to get cut if he hadn't been traded, because of their salary cap issues.  They had moved up to get Mahomes in 2017 because they clearly knew they were moving on from Alex Smith regardless in 2018.    

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1 hour ago, swede700 said:

Then we will agree to disagree, because there are significantly higher needs than drafting a guy who "potentially" could be a franchise QB, when you have a guy on the roster, who is guaranteed to be here for 2 more years.  There isn't an immense upside to drafting a QB in 2019 when you don't have enough good players on the OL to protect the guy you have under center right now.  By taking that guy in 2019, then you run the risk of injuring Cousins in 2019 and forcing in a guy who probably shouldn't play yet.

for me it's more a question of if we'd be able to find a better replacement in 2020 or 2021 with limited assets. i'm pretty sure the team doesn't plan on having a top 20 pick in the next two drafts and finding a starting-level QB in free agency is... unlikely. if you don't like the mahomes comparison then how about jimmy garoppolo? i know the patriots spent significantly less draft capital than what we would at 18th overall but spending the 62nd pick on garoppolo when he *literally* backed up brady for three years is still crazy. pretty sure belichick's response to them drafting jimmy was "you don't need insurance... until you do". in that case jimmy was never going to start over brady while brady was healthy (or he retired) so it was literally for insurance purposes. in our case there could be a lot more upside as he could take over for cousins after he leaves (or even before). ironically, jimmy turned out to be the best QB in the draft class (barring teddy reviving his career) when he started two games in three years with the team that drafted him. 

we also need to find a backup QB and have very little funds to allocate to the position. kyle sloter is still on the roster but he is 100% unproven which is the last thing you want potentially starting for a team with super bowl aspirations. the cap hit for the 18th pick will be about $2.4 million in 2019. tyrod taylor, josh mccown, teddy bridgewater and ryan fitzpatrick are the best/most experienced QBs on the market this season and each will likely get $3 million or more. that's at least $3 million of cap space for a player that *hopefully* doesn't play a snap for a team that's already in a cap crunch. 

 

i'm not saying it's the obvious, must-make move and it's likely moot since a team like the dolphins will take him anyways, i just think it's a possibility worth discussing. 

 

EDIT: and yeah, taking murray in our situation is obviously dependent on the team believing in him as a prospect.

Edited by whitehops
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I'm pretty sure if I've read correctly, the 2020 draft class at QB is going to be far better and far deeper than this one...with Herbert, Tua, Fromm, Easton, and Patterson right now as the top 5, and maybe even more to come.  

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8 minutes ago, swede700 said:

I'm pretty sure if I've read correctly, the 2020 draft class at QB is going to be far better than this one.

that's what i've read too, but like this past draft class that still means we'd need a top-10ish pick to get one of the quality ones. i know the ravens took lamar jackson at 32 but he had a poor year as a passer and is still very far away from showing that he can be a franchise QB.

 

trading up from what *hopefully* is a pick from 25-32 next year would take much more than simply spending a first rounder this draft. if murray gets out of the top ten picks then miami is really the only team likely to take him before our pick (at 13). 

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14 minutes ago, whitehops said:

that's what i've read too, but like this past draft class that still means we'd need a top-10ish pick to get one of the quality ones. i know the ravens took lamar jackson at 32 but he had a poor year as a passer and is still very far away from showing that he can be a franchise QB.

 

trading up from what *hopefully* is a pick from 25-32 next year would take much more than simply spending a first rounder this draft. if murray gets out of the top ten picks then miami is really the only team likely to take him before our pick (at 13). 

I would probably take at least 4 of the 5 I mentioned in 2020 over Kyler Murray.  I don't think he's all that special. 

And I'd have no problem giving up more than just a first rounder in 2020 to get up into the top 10, if that guy is worth it (whoever that may be) and if Cousins has another mixed-bag year.  None of these guys are that special nor has Cousins proven that he either is or isn't the guy. 

Maybe some of you have already made your mind up and have already moved on.  I think that is a short-sighted opinion and is also not dealing in the reality of the situation.  He's here.  He'll be here for 2 more years regardless.  They need to do everything they need to do to support him for this season.  Spending #18 on a QB does nothing to support him nor markedly improves the team.  All it does is basically throw away the 2019 season right from the start.      

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1 hour ago, swede700 said:

Then we will agree to disagree, because there are significantly higher needs than drafting a guy who "potentially" could be a franchise QB, when you have a guy on the roster, who is guaranteed to be here for 2 more years.  There isn't an immense upside to drafting a QB in 2019 when you don't have enough good players on the OL to protect the guy you have under center right now.

Indeed we disagree and that is fine. My whole statement was predicated on the team believing in Murray and I further stated that they need to believe in him in a lot broader sense than just physical talent. You don't pass up on that because he "potentially" could be your franchise QB. When you believe in a guy like that you can't worry about every bad thing that could happen like freak accidents.  The Vikings need bold leadership that will not be driven by fear. If they believe completely in any QB and that guy is available for just a first round pick they need to take him. If not, they might as well just resign; it would be admitting they were unfit to make decisions at that level. That is what they get paid the big bucks to do.

And about the offensive line, that needs to be fixed before the draft. If it isn't there is something very wrong already. By the draft the team shouldn't be in a situation where offensive line is forcing them to do anything.

This is all likely moot because they likely will not believe in a QB like that this year. The discussion is a hypothetical situation where they do believe in the QB. In that hypothetical there is no room to worry about all the boxes not being checked.

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1 minute ago, RpMc said:

Very much looking forward to seeing Risner at the senior bowl. Any other prospects who could be standouts in our areas of need??

Here's some guys, from what I read...

TE Josh Oliver (San Jose St) - The measurables are good, as he's 6'5", 255

OG Chris Lindstrom (BC) - The site I'm looking at says he's a better version of Will Hernandez.

OG Dru Samia (Oklahoma) - From the same line as Cody Ford and is indicated as an ideal zone blocking G.

C/OG Garrett Bradbury (NC State) - Described as a potential elite center.

DT Khalen Saunders (Western Illinois) - FCS guy, could be a 3-tech in the NFL, under the radar guy, but extremely athletic at 320 lbs.

 

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3 minutes ago, swede700 said:

Here's some guys, from what I read...

TE Josh Oliver (San Jose St) - The measurables are good, as he's 6'5", 255

OG Chris Lindstrom (BC) - The site I'm looking at says he's a better version of Will Hernandez.

OG Dru Samia (Oklahoma) - From the same line as Cody Ford and is indicated as an ideal zone blocking G.

C/OG Garrett Bradbury (NC State) - Described as a potential elite center.

DT Khalen Saunders (Western Illinois) - FCS guy, could be a 3-tech in the NFL, under the radar guy, but extremely athletic at 320 lbs.

 

And in a recent mock draft (today, as a matter of fact), the guy in question has the Vikings taking Bradbury at #18, which would mean he'd take over center and Elflein would move to OG.  

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