2019 Draft Talk

[Cearbhall]

1 minute ago, swede700 said:

I'd like to add that what would have been the potential cost of trading up in certain situations?  Is it quite possible that they would have lost the chance to draft Danielle Hunter in order to trade up to get a Donovan Smith or Laken Tomlinson instead of standing pat and drafting Eric Kendricks?  That's a question that would have to be answered as well.  Is that something you would have been okay with, in retrospect?  

There are too many interconnected dependencies to really know the entirety of how the team would be effected by making various alternate decisions throughout their history. I am not going to spend my days speculating on hypotheticals of the past like that. What I will say, is that there are risks and rewards of all possible decisions. Nothing the team has done to this point in their history has led to a Lombardi. If I was running the show I would have made different decisions with respect to how to prioritize resources in building a team. I would have put more resource into getting the offensive line correct. Without doubt, there would have been effects that trickled throughout the organization. Would it have resulted in a Lombardi? We don't know. One thing we do know is that it wouldn't have resulted in fewer Lombardi trophies.

 

[VikeManDan]

10 minutes ago, swede700 said:

I'd like to add that what would have been the potential cost of trading up in certain situations?  Is it quite possible that they would have lost the chance to draft Danielle Hunter in order to trade up to get a Donovan Smith or Laken Tomlinson instead of standing pat and drafting Eric Kendricks?  That's a question that would have to be answered as well.  Is that something you would have been okay with, in retrospect?  

It's a fair question but a difficult one to project/answer. It is typically why I like to make a 1:1 move i.e. Whitehair instead of Alexander.

[SemperFeist]

We have been having this offensive line discussion for dang near a decade on this site. When playing the “would’ve, could’ve, should’ve” game, if the only player that’s brought up is Cody Whitehair, likely still due to his rookie year, then the team has been making the correct decisions. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by SemperFeist

[vikingsrule]

37 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

We have been having this offensive line discussion for dang near a decade on this site. When playing the “would’ve, could’ve, should’ve” game, if the only player that’s brought up is Cody Whitehair, likely still due to his rookie year, then the team has been making the correct decisions. 

You certainly can't ignore opportunities missed in free agency.

Also, the Vikes legitimately missed on all pro Zack Martin. However, taking a guard in the top 10 usually isn't the best use of resources, then again, we used that pick on a 4-3 OLB, which is an arguably worse use of resources.

But if Martin is an all pro or at the least, a very good LT, the miss is even worse. Because then we aren't spending big money on Reiff (could have gone after Kevin Zeitler instead they were the same year, right?).

Completely hypothetical:

LT Martin

LG Whitehair

C Elflein

RG Zeitler

RT O'Neill

Or if Martin stays at RG, swap in Reiff and pull out Zeitler.

But you would lose Barr and Alexander to have Martin and Whitehair.

Bottom line, Spielman has seemed content using stop gaps in free agency over drafting OL early, exceptions being Kalil and Elflein. Interestingly though, Kalil was a top 5 pick, a huge investment, yet he's been one of the worst OL in the last five years of this team.

[swede700]

13 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Also, the Vikes legitimately missed on all pro Zack Martin. However, taking a guard in the top 10 usually isn't the best use of resources, then again, we used that pick on a 4-3 OLB, which is an arguably worse use of resources.

1

That  Von Miller guy seems to have worked out when he was originally drafted as an OLB in the 4-3.  I'd argue that the only completely bad use of resources is drafting a special teams player in the top 15.  A guard, an OLB, a RB, et al, is fine depending upon the depth at the position. 

If there's a lack of depth at the position (which there often is nowadays with a 4-3 OLB) and there's an elite talent available there, then it's fine.  Granted, I thought they were going to take Aaron Donald at the time, but no one expected them to take a OL, because they had just taken Kalil 2 years earlier and no one expected Martin to go as early as he eventually did.  

[vikingsrule]

5 minutes ago, swede700 said:

That  Von Miller guy seems to have worked out when he was originally drafted as an OLB in the 4-3.  I'd argue that the only completely bad use of resources is drafting a special teams player in the top 15.  A guard, an OLB, a RB, et al, is fine depending upon the depth at the position. 

If there's a lack of depth at the position (which there often is nowadays with a 4-3 OLB) and there's an elite talent available there, then it's fine.  Granted, I thought they were going to take Aaron Donald at the time, but no one expected them to take a OL, because they had just taken Kalil 2 years earlier and no one expected Martin to go as early as he eventually did.  

Von Miller was used as a pass rusher far more frequently than Barr. Did he ever play coverage? He was a 4-3 OLB in name only.

i recall Martin being a legit top 10 pick, but like Donald, lack of prototypical size hurt him (in relation to being a LT).

Edited November 30, 2018 by vikingsrule

[SemperFeist]

You also have to look at the circumstances that the Vikings were in, at the time of the draft. Not looking at hindsight. 

Kalil had a decent 2013 (72.8 PFF grade) and he was a Pro Bowler as a rookie in 2012. It’s ludicrous to think that the team would have drafted his replacement. Loadholt (81.9 PFF grade) was a year into his big 5 year extension, and Brandon Fusco (83.9 PFF grade) was playing at a high level. High enough to earn himself a new 5 year contract right before the start of the season. The only player that was even remotely in line to be replaced was Charles Johnson (67.2 PFF grade), who quite frankly, didn’t have a terrible year in 2013 (his first year at the guard position). 

There’s also the fact that following the 2013 season, the Vikings had the 14th ranked offense, but they had the 32nd ranked defense. The focus entering the 2014 offseason was on fixing the sieve that was their defense, and hopefully finding a QB to replace Ponder. 

[PrplChilPill]

On 11/30/2018 at 9:14 AM, SemperFeist said:

We have been having this offensive line discussion for dang near a decade on this site. When playing the “would’ve, could’ve, should’ve” game, if the only player that’s brought up is Cody Whitehair, likely still due to his rookie year, then the team has been making the correct decisions. 

I don't have the stamina to list all the names passed on in the last 5-7 years. So, no, Whitehair is not the only name to mention. Do you really think that? That's not fair at all. All I know is that it isn't working, not close. 

[gopherwrestler]

We keep saying misses.....

Our Misses have been Patterson and Treadwell..... not the other players. We didn’t “miss” on drafting these other lineman. 

Treadwell vs “who?” - whats the offensive line replacement there that would of made this team better? Yet we go after Alexander who has now started to finally start playing solid. At the time Waynes was not improving, and Rhodes showed his gimpy self, we had no slot corner in sight. Our teams identity was defense. 

 

To me, the biggest Patterson defender on this site, he is the only pick that I look back on and really believe there was option out there, but even with that said it still would have involved trading up, and the trade up would be for a center Travis Fredricks, who currently would have no impact on the team. 

I get the whole Barr pick, even at the time had people going, uhhh, but we weren’t going to draft Taylor Lewan after having just drafted Kalil, and having Loadholt on the roster. You could say Zach Martin, who many of us on the site actually did like, but I think the majority of everyone that was around Vikings football expected us to draft either Teddy or Manziel in this slot. 

 

 

 

[JDBrocks]

13 hours ago, PrplChilPill said:

I don't have the stamina to list all the names passed on in the last 5-7 years. So, no, Whitehair is not the only name to mention. Do you really think that? That's not fair at all. All I know is that it isn't working, not close. 

The stamina? This is the hill that you pick to wage war on, year in and year out, and you don't have the stamina for a 20 minute wikipedia search? I pretty much did it for you earlier. If you are going to start listing guys from round 3 and later fine, but just know that every single team passed on those guys at least twice. In my opinion, that's not a crazy indictment of the front office.

I think you are correctly frustrated with the state of the offensive line. I think it is fair to criticize Rick for being pretty bad at finding offensive lineman in the draft (jury is still out on Elflein and O'Neill). It is not in any way fair to criticize the use of team resources on the position group.

[vikingsrule]

Honestly might have to put Center as a pressing need, just as much as Guard. We basically need an entirely new interior OL. 

Elflein wasn't an early pick so there doesn't have to be that attachment. Any blue chip center prospects? I know they are pretty rare.

Find a way to bring back Barr and Richardson, Guard and Center could then be the top two picks. MN would need to find a stop gap in free agency for the other guard spot, could probably bring back both Easton and Compton for cheap and let them all compete at LG (with Elflein too).

[gopherwrestler]

You guys have no idea how bad it is watching the offensive lineman once again this year, been on it for about 3 days. We will not find a starter in the first round this year. SO much talent elsewhere we have to try and hope someone falls. Without a doubt I would assume in a worst case scenario we draft middle of the pack. 

 

Another sad story, the free agent class isn’t a whole heck of a lot better. 

As of right now I would assume, Reiff, Elfien, and O’Niel are locked in as starters in 2019 and they will once again give Easton a look at one of the guard spots. 

Once again 2nd round is still probably the best option to look for an offensive lineman. 

[swede700]

7 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

Honestly might have to put Center as a pressing need, just as much as Guard. We basically need an entirely new interior OL. 

Elflein wasn't an early pick so there doesn't have to be that attachment. Any blue chip center prospects? I know they are pretty rare.

Find a way to bring back Barr and Richardson, Guard and Center could then be the top two picks. MN would need to find a stop gap in free agency for the other guard spot, could probably bring back both Easton and Compton for cheap and let them all compete at LG (with Elflein too).

I think pulling the plug on a center who had no offseason because he's had a bad season, would be an extremely short-sighted move.  

[NoDakViking]

3 minutes ago, gopherwrestler said:

You guys have no idea how bad it is watching the offensive lineman once again this year, been on it for about 3 days. We will not find a starter in the first round this year. SO much talent elsewhere we have to try and hope someone falls. Without a doubt I would assume in a worst case scenario we draft middle of the pack. 

 

Another sad story, the free agent class isn’t a whole heck of a lot better. 

As of right now I would assume, Reiff, Elfien, and O’Niel are locked in as starters in 2019 and they will once again give Easton a look at one of the guard spots. 

Once again 2nd round is still probably the best option to look for an offensive lineman. 

I was thinking this too.  Take BPA in RD 1 and find value in rounds 2-3 for OL.  I like Cody Ford from OU and Michael Jordan from Ohio state.   Probably add another OG late

[vikingsrule]

27 minutes ago, swede700 said:

I think pulling the plug on a center who had no offseason because he's had a bad season, would be an extremely short-sighted move.  

If there is a center in the draft worth taking early, I don't see how you'd pass that up. Being optimistic for no reason could certainly set the Oline back too. If Elflein truly has ability at this level, I'd think he could settle into a guard spot if it gives the Vikes the best OL combo. I don't think those mid round picks like Elflein deserve the benefit of the doubt like a 1st or 2nd round pick typically receives.

Edited December 3, 2018 by vikingsrule