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champ11

Which draft class will have a larger impact in 2018?

Bigger impact this year?  

12 members have voted

  1. 1. Bigger impact in 2018?

    • 2017 draft
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    • 2018 draft
      12


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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

DT-in-prime had way more explosion, YAC & home-run ability than present day Sutton.   Present-day DT isn't a whole lot different, though.   And yeah, a whole lot more expensive.

Hamilton is a slot-only guy.   In that way, he's not nearly as high-ceiling as Sanders proved to be (originally we thought he was a slot-only guy, how wrong we all were).   

But yeah, there's 100 percent likelihood one of DT/Sanders are gone after this year.    And I think it's a 75-80 percent chance both are gone by 2019.  I don't think it will happen with both guys after 2018, we'll be choosing to keep 1 guy.   I'd much prefer DT too, frankly, the $ difference isn't that great, and DT's actually proven to be a safer bet (for all the bad press he gets, never missed a game - that kind of longevity and reliability is just not seen).   Obviously we have all season to decide, but it's pretty clear given our cap situation, we have to shed 1 of the 2 guys...and likely, by 2019, both are done.    Either way, though, it's good to have this kind of flexibility - while nothing is written in stone, at no point last offseason did I feel like we had a clear long-term direction with who we took.  This clearly has 2019+ in mind.

Yea but like I say on the Browns board all the time. A WR is only as productive as the guy throwing him the ball. How could we have really expected DT or Sanders to really do much of anything when they had Siemian, Osweiler and Lynch throwing them the ball. I think everybody is going to be suprised at how well Sanders/DT look this season just by even having a mediocre QB throwing them the ball on time and accurately.

So what happens if this year they both go back to 1k yard WRs and its like Peyton never left?

Edited by AkronsWitness

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Yea but like I say on the Browns board all the time. A WR is only as productive as the guy throwing him the ball. How could we have really expected DT or Sanders to really do much of anything when they had Siemian, Osweiler and Lynch throwing them the ball. I think everybody is going to be suprised at how well Sanders/DT look this season just by even having a mediocre QB throwing them the ball on time and accurately.

So what happens if this year they both go back to 1k yard WRs and its like Peyton never left?

Well, 1K guys aren't that special nowadays.  But I get your point - what if they are difference-maker, 1200-1300 yd / 90+ / 8-10 TD guys?

Simple.   We then can trade 1, even if it's for a 3rd/4th round pick (remember, that's the best-case currency for expensive but productive players).    Our cap situation pretty much demands it.   If they aren't that good, though, then it's far more likely we have to just part ways.  But yeah, if both play really well, then it's a good problem to have.  

TBH, though - I'm not that high on Keenum making that scenario unfold.   Better than what we've had?  Absolutely.   A huge difference-maker?  Not so fast.  MIN's 2017 season was the perfect storm for QB success (ahead early to enable run-based game with play-action being deadly, a truly elite D that only required 17+ pts to win per game, one of the NFL' s easiest schedules for QB's, and a set of weapons and OL play that's better than ours).   We aren't that close to what MIN gave Keenum.    I'd love to be wrong, but sadly, history says most 30 year-old QB's who haven't established themselves before, who play well on a good-to-great team, don't fare nearly as well once that team isn't so good (or in this case, get moved to a not-nearly-as-good situation).

Edited by Broncofan

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1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

DT-in-prime had way more explosion, YAC & home-run ability than present day Sutton.   Present-day DT isn't a whole lot different, though.   And yeah, a whole lot more expensive.

Hamilton is a slot-only guy.   In that way, he's not nearly as high-ceiling as Sanders proved to be (originally we thought he was a slot-only guy, how wrong we all were).   

But yeah, there's 100 percent likelihood one of DT/Sanders are gone after this year.    And I think it's a 75-80 percent chance both are gone by 2019.  I don't think it will happen with both guys after 2018, we'll be choosing to keep 1 guy.   I'd much prefer DT too, frankly, the $ difference isn't that great, and DT's actually proven to be a safer bet (for all the bad press he gets, never missed a game - that kind of longevity and reliability is just not seen).   Obviously we have all season to decide, but it's pretty clear given our cap situation, we have to shed 1 of the 2 guys...and likely, by 2019, both are done.    Either way, though, it's good to have this kind of flexibility - while nothing is written in stone, at no point last offseason did I feel like we had a clear long-term direction with who we took.  This clearly has 2019+ in mind.

I honestly still like the Sutton/Dez Bryant comparison best.  He still isn’t quite as explosive as Dez in his prime, though.  Bryant was (even in college) never great creating separation.  Was a 4.52 40 at his pro day (pro days are always faster) but was a physical player that could go get the football and difficult to bring down after the catch.  Having watched more of Sutton now, his game is very reminiscent.  Can make the tough grab with defenders around, has enough wiggle/speed to make a guy miss or hit the crease, and when defenders hit him they find out his size, strength, and running style aren’t that of a typical WR.

Sutton will make it work as a deep threat on size/strength/hands, but don’t expect him to be blowing past DBs.  He’ll make his living on the short to intermediate routes in the middle (where he can still bust off some big gains) and in the red zone, which are the areas where bigger/stronger WRs can thrive.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, germ-x said:

I honestly still like the Sutton/Dez Bryant comparison best.  He still isn’t quite as explosive as Dez in his prime, though.  Bryant was (even in college) never great creating separation.  Was a 4.52 40 at his pro day (pro days are always faster) but was a physical player that could go get the football and difficult to bring down after the catch.  Having watched more of Sutton now, his game is very reminiscent.  Can make the tough grab with defenders around, has enough wiggle/speed to make a guy miss or hit the crease, and when defenders hit him they find out his size, strength, and running style aren’t that of a typical WR.

Sutton will make it work as a deep threat on size/strength/hands, but don’t expect him to be blowing past DBs.  He’ll make his living on the short to intermediate routes in the middle (where he can still bust off some big gains) and in the red zone, which are the areas where bigger/stronger WRs can thrive.

Yeah, Dez was so good at body control and hand-fighting, that's a lot closer to Sutton than young DT for sure.   Jeffery is close too (but Jeffery more athletic IMO, by straight measurements it doesn't look that far apart, but Jeffery's football skills leveraged his physical gifts to the max - he was always catching balls at his peak height with jump balls, and using his body to shield guys - so even though their size/vert/broads look the same, Jeffery played like a 6'6 guy, not a 6'3 guy, and who seemed 20 lbs heavier in his box-out ability).   I do think that's what Sutton brings in the best-case scenario (young Dez or lessser version of young Alshon).   The worst-case is what we see with Dez now, and the concern as DT's skills fade over time - the ability to separate goes away, and if you can't win the 50-50 balls, jump balls and box-out/hand-fights, suddenly you aren't effective (Dez).   

DT has never been able to handle press coverage well, but he still wins with box-outs/body control, and great hands (when he isn't having the maddening case of the drops, he makes some insanely tough hand catches, which I get drives the fanbase nuts lol) - but he needs a QB to throw to the right spot for him to leverage those skills (same with Dez even more so than DT).   Sanders' physical skills fading is an even bigger problem, his quick-twitch ability to separate is robbed if he loses short-area quickness.  It's why given both are expensive, I'd probably go with DT - but we have a year to figure that out, lol.  No need to commit now.

The thing about the above - the physical big-body WR's usually take time to succeed.   Mike Evans might be the one notable exception, but his skills were at a far higher level coming out of college than Sutton's are now.   So best-case, Sutton's going to need time.

Edited by Broncofan

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Does Suttons game resemble Marshalls at all? He's still up there with Eddie Mac as my favorite Bronco "big body" WR's.

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I don't see the physicality to Sutton's game that I saw with Dez or Marshall. Clearly not in the same league as guys like DT athletically either. I'm really not sure who he compares to. 

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3 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

I don't see the physicality to Sutton's game that I saw with Dez or Marshall. Clearly not in the same league as guys like DT athletically either. I'm really not sure who he compares to. 

How about Roddy white?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

How about Roddy white?

Depends. I think the biggest difference in DT/Dez are their catch radius. DT for his size doesn't seem to fully extend too often for jump balls nor does he highpoint very well, but he can easily get separation.

Dez is the opposite, he struggles with separation but has a huge catch radius and high points the ball extremely well.

I haven't watched enough of Sutton to know what one he fits into. If I do have a gripe with DT it's that he doesn't play his size. He wastes a lot of his size by not "mossing" opponents down field which he seemed to do a lot of in college. Basically, it annoys me that he doesn't fight for the ball in the air consistently

I hope Sutton can be a guy who uses his size for jump balls and high pointing

Edited by AkronsWitness

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33 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Depends. I think the biggest difference in DT/Dez are their catch radius. DT for his size doesn't seem to fully extend too often for jump balls nor does he highpoint very well, but he can easily get separation.

Dez is the opposite, he struggles with separation but has a huge catch radius and high points the ball extremely well.

I haven't watched enough of Sutton to know what one he fits into. If I do have a gripe with DT it's that he doesn't play his size. He wastes a lot of his size by not "mossing" opponents down field which he seemed to do a lot of in college. Basically, it annoys me that he doesn't fight for the ball in the air consistently

I hope Sutton can be a guy who uses his size for jump balls and high pointing

I think that's a talent that he just doesn't and never has had. Size does not necessarily equal ability to win jump balls. It's why DT was never a top 5, elite receiver even though his stats were worthy of being in that conversation. 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I think that's a talent that he just doesn't and never has had. Size does not necessarily equal ability to win jump balls. It's why DT was never a top 5, elite receiver even though his stats were worthy of being in that conversation. 

Right he had his time as a top 5 with a few years with Peyton but I think it just shows how much QB play dictates WR production

I'm can't go out there and expect DT to get 1200 yards and 10 TDs when Siemian, Osweiler, Lynch and Tebow are throwing him the ball. That's atrocious

Edited by AkronsWitness

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1 hour ago, AkronsWitness said:

Depends. I think the biggest difference in DT/Dez are their catch radius. DT for his size doesn't seem to fully extend too often for jump balls nor does he highpoint very well, but he can easily get separation.

Dez is the opposite, he struggles with separation but has a huge catch radius and high points the ball extremely well.

I haven't watched enough of Sutton to know what one he fits into. If I do have a gripe with DT it's that he doesn't play his size. He wastes a lot of his size by not "mossing" opponents down field which he seemed to do a lot of in college. Basically, it annoys me that he doesn't fight for the ball in the air consistently

I hope Sutton can be a guy who uses his size for jump balls and high pointing

Huh...I remember a few DT catches, particularly one against the Chiefs where he "high pointed" a ball that only he could get...he was in between defenders and the back of the end zone...and I still do not know how he caught it.  Now is that his strength...I don't think so...his strength, I think is run after the catch...he always gets lined up for the bubble screen because he has that ability to run after the catch. 

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