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Seahawks cut Cliff Avril

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11 hours ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

Wouldnt surprise me if they were 3rd but 4th behind the Cardinals would surprise me

Not so sure, a healthy David Johnson makes a huge difference for the Cardinals. Even when Bradford gets hurt, Rosen > Henson/Gabbert, I think both teams are round .500.

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On 5/4/2018 at 6:10 PM, Broncofan said:

It’s crazy looking at the list of past and present DL how much SEA perpetually invests in DL yet completely ignores the OL. 

It's crazy looking at the Seahawks OL and thinking that it has been ignored.

  • Justin Britt - 2014 2nd round pick
  • Ethan Pocic - 2017 2nd round pick
  • Germain Ifedi - 2016 1st round pick
  • Duane Brown - traded a 2018 3rd round pick and a 2019 2nd round pick for him

The team has invested a total of 5 1st and 2nd day picks on linemen over the last 4 years, and people think they ignored the OL because the techniques Tom Cable coaches have been hacked by every Defensive Coordinator in the NFL (pray for David Carr, y'all).  

That said, Cliff Avril was a criminally underrated DE, and will be sorely missed not only on the field, but also for his work in the communities of Seattle, Jacksonville and Haiti where his charitable work earned him the honor of being named the 2016 Walter Payton Man of the Year.

It's a damn shame he can't play anymore. 

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/cliff-avril-seattle-seahawks-thank-you

 

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19 minutes ago, ditchdigger said:

The team has invested a total of 5 1st and 2nd day picks on linemen over the last 4 years, and people think they ignored the OL because the techniques Tom Cable coaches have been hacked by every Defensive Coordinator in the NFL (pray for David Carr, y'all).  

Tom Cable teaches linemen a specific technique that's so unbelievably stupid that every defense can bust through a Cable line's protection?  

I could spin all sorts of fun side stories off that single assertion, but I think I'll go straight to the inevitable, far more logical conclusion--the Seahawks haven't picked up players that have done a good job protecting the quarterback. (I do think Brown will work out, though). The situation is kind of like what we saw with the Giants, up 'til this year. 

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2 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

Tom Cable teaches linemen a specific technique that's so unbelievably stupid that every defense can bust through a Cable line's protection?  

I could spin all sorts of fun side stories off that single assertion, but I think I'll go straight to the inevitable, far more logical conclusion--the Seahawks haven't picked up players that have done a good job protecting the quarterback. (I do think Brown will work out, though). The situation is kind of like what we saw with the Giants, up 'til this year. 

Tom Cable teaches linemen a specific technique that is no longer effective at the NFL level, yes.  

No doubt the team has whiffed on it's highest pick in Ifedi, but the fact of the matter is the other players on that list are much better than what they showed on the field last year.  I have confidence Solari will have them playing much more effectively, mixing in power, trap and inside zone along with some standard zone schemes.  There were just too many instances of linemen running to block nobody last year.  

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1 hour ago, ditchdigger said:

It's crazy looking at the Seahawks OL and thinking that it has been ignored.

  • Justin Britt - 2014 2nd round pick
  • Ethan Pocic - 2017 2nd round pick
  • Germain Ifedi - 2016 1st round pick
  • Duane Brown - traded a 2018 3rd round pick and a 2019 2nd round pick for him

The team has invested a total of 5 1st and 2nd day picks on linemen over the last 4 years, and people think they ignored the OL because the techniques Tom Cable coaches have been hacked by every Defensive Coordinator in the NFL (pray for David Carr, y'all).  

That said, Cliff Avril was a criminally underrated DE, and will be sorely missed not only on the field, but also for his work in the communities of Seattle, Jacksonville and Haiti where his charitable work earned him the honor of being named the 2016 Walter Payton Man of the Year.

It's a damn shame he can't play anymore. 

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/cliff-avril-seattle-seahawks-thank-you

 

The problem is that only once did  they prioritize OL when it’s been their top priority (Ifedi 2016).  If we want to be generous let’s say Britt was at least a co-priority.     

But going McDowell when both Lamp & Robinson were there when SEA was OTC and then going Penny over the G/T left are clear cases of the devaluation.   

And it’s not just draft - it extends to their positional cap allocation to OL vs DL: 

2014: OL 17.7% DL: 20.2%

2015: OL 8.6% DL: 18.7%

2016: OL 4.2% DL: 14.5%

2017: OL 12.6%  DL: 18.1%

Sure they spent on Duane Brown but it’s precisely because they de-prioritized OL that they were forced down that route.  They didn’t choose to go down that route as a plan.  To present that is pretty disingenuous.  “Let’s get a T at the trade deadline who’s holding out instead of drafting one”.   No way that’s a plan you start with before the draft begins.  

It’s pretty clear the timing of OL resource devaluation was out of necessity - Wilson’s extension was looming and the other young D core players like Sherman / Thomas / Chancelllor needed to get paid as well (Lynch, Avril, Bennett too).   It was understandable in 2014-15 to devalue OL too - their OL was top 5 both years in DVOA.   But in 2016 & 2017 they were 26th and 31st - which makes their 2017-18 decisions incredibly suspect.   It’s clear they had so much success in 2014-15 they figured the run could be sustained without prioritizing it as top focus - and then had to get T Brown mid-season when this approach failed.   It’s not DL but even worse to go RB esp when overall BPA and positional depth could have easily argued OL - before SEA’s need is factored in.  

Just because they recognized late their approach failed doesn’t mean SEA prioritizes OL.   It’s clear a complete picture of the last 3-5 years shows they thought they could get it done on the cheap - but instead had to fix on the fly last year.   Which makes this year’s choice curious to say the least.   

And before you think I’m throwing stones in a glass house - DEN did the exact same thing in the Shanahan years even after Alex Gibbs left after 2003.   Once It worked for 2003-5 because Lepsis & Nalen held that OL.   For 4 straight years no one was drafted before round 6 except 1 guy in 2007 in Rd3.  Once Nalen & Lepsis’ play faded, that cheap approach failed them for that miserable end to Shanahan’s DEN era in 2006-8.   When you live through it once it’s easy to recognize when it’s happening again.  I get why SEA did it after 2014 they had to go cheap somewhere.   It just hasn’t worked out the last 2 years.   It’s hard to see 2018 being any different.  

Edited by Broncofan

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9 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The problem is that only once did  they prioritize OL when it’s been their top priority (Ifedi 2016).  If we want to be generous let’s say Britt was at least a co-priority.     

But going McDowell when both Lamp & Robinson were there when SEA was OTC and then going Penny over the G/T left are clear cases of the devaluation.   

And it’s not just draft - it extends to their positional allocation to OL vs DL: 

2014: OL 17.7% DL: 20.2%

2015: OL 8.6% DL: 18.7%

2016: OL 4.2% DL: 14.5%

2017: OL 12.6%  DL: 18.1%

Sure they spent on Duane Brown but it’s precisely because they de-prioritized OL that they were forced down that route.  They didn’t choose to go down that route as a plan.  To present that is pretty disingenuous.  “Let’s get a T at the trade deadline who’s holding out instead of drafting one”.   No way that’s a plan you start with before the draft begins.  

It’s pretty clear the timing of OL resource devaluation was out of necessity - Wilson’s extension and the other young D core players like Sherman / Thomas / Chancelllor needed to get paid as well.   It was understandable in 2014-15 to devalue OL too - their OL was top 5 both years in DVOA.   But in 2016 & 2017 they were 26th and 31st - which makes their 2017-18 decisions incredibly suspect.   It’s clear they had so much success in 2014-15 they figured the run could be sustained without prioritizing it as top focus - and then had to get T Brown mid-season when this approach failed.   It’s not DL but even worse to go RB esp when overall BPA and positional depth could have easily argued OL - before SEA need factored in.  

Just because they recognized late their approach failed doesn’t mean SEA prioritizes OL.   It’s clear a complete picture of the last 3-5 years shows they thought they could get it done on the cheap - but instead had to fix on the fly last year.   Which makes this year’s choice curious to say the least.   

And before you think I’m throwing stones in a glass house - DEN did the exact same thing in the Shanahan years even after Alex Gibbs left after 2003.   Once It worked for 2003-5 because Lepsis & Nalen held that OL.   For 4 straight years no one was drafted before round 6 except 1 guy in 2007 in Rd3.  Once Nalen & Lepsis’ play faded, that cheap approach failed them for that miserable end to Shanahan’s DEN era in 2006-8.   When you live through it once it’s easy to recognize when it’s happening again.  I get why SEA did it after 2014 they had to go cheap somewhere.   It just hasn’t worked out the last 2 years.   It’s hard to see 2018 being any different.  

Not much to argue with there.  These are all very valid points based entirely on verifiable information.  Great post.

My contention was with the statement that they've ignored the OL, which is clearly untrue.  Definitely not a top priority, but certainly not ignored.

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9 minutes ago, ditchdigger said:

Not much to argue with there.  These are all very valid points based entirely on verifiable information.  Great post.

My contention was with the statement that they've ignored the OL, which is clearly untrue.  Definitely not a top priority, but certainly not ignored.

To be fair, I am a huge proponent of taking BPA when there's a clear gap in talent between overall BPA on the Big Board and a need pick.   We clearly were locked in to T last year as an example at 1.20, no matter how the Big Board was going to fall.    So I get SEA not necessarily reaching for need too soon.

But the last 2 years, the overall BPA's were Lamp & Robinson - and then they went McDowell (after trading back 1x).   Then this year, the OL guys like Will Hernandez were very much in the BPA discussion - and then they went Penny.   It's one thing to reach way too soon for a need pick, but man, I don't see what SEA is thinking there.    Especially since Wilson is their franchise - and he's been hurt badly (in 2016) with bad OL protection, and this year he ran for his life pretty much every game.   Thinking your mobile QB will make your OL play up is the wrong type of thinking - it's what got GM Grigson fired in IND, and worse, Andrew Luck's career very much in doubt. 

I'd really hope GM Schneider sees this by next draft that they have to commit to OL - ironically, this was the year to get OL help late in Rd1 and all throughout Rd2, just not an elite T early.    I hope it's not too late by then.   That would be a shame.

Edited by Broncofan

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3 hours ago, Broncofan said:

To be fair, I am a huge proponent of taking BPA when there's a clear gap in talent between overall BPA on the Big Board and a need pick.   We clearly were locked in to T last year as an example at 1.20, no matter how the Big Board was going to fall.    So I get SEA not necessarily reaching for need too soon.

But the last 2 years, the overall BPA's were Lamp & Robinson - and then they went McDowell (after trading back 1x).   Then this year, the OL guys like Will Hernandez were very much in the BPA discussion - and then they went Penny.   It's one thing to reach way too soon for a need pick, but man, I don't see what SEA is thinking there.    Especially since Wilson is their franchise - and he's been hurt badly (in 2016) with bad OL protection, and this year he ran for his life pretty much every game.   Thinking your mobile QB will make your OL play up is the wrong type of thinking - it's what got GM Grigson fired in IND, and worse, Andrew Luck's career very much in doubt. 

I'd really hope GM Schneider sees this by next draft that they have to commit to OL - ironically, this was the year to get OL help late in Rd1 and all throughout Rd2, just not an elite T early.    I hope it's not too late by then.   That would be a shame.

Looking back without context, and having hindsight be 20/20 doesn't accurately paint a clear picture. It sounds dumb now, but the reason Seattle didnt draft a guard in round one last year was because they thought Mark Glowinski was the guy (and they shelled out big bucks on Luke Joeckel).

This year they didnt draft a guard because they think 2017 2nd round pick Pocic is the guy, and they shelled out big bucks for Fluker.

With limited draft capital (no 2nd-3rd) they spent their picks on positions without much depth (Rb) or position that had been gutted (DL). Alot of draft capital has been invested in the OL and with a new scheme, I think they want to see if those invests can finally pay off. If you look at many other positions, they have been neglected due to how much focus has been put on the OL (especially in 2015 and 2016). Last year was the first year Seattle got to focus on positions not on the OL [DL x2, CB, WR, S x2]. The philosophy this year in FA and the draft seemed to be the fill in all the holes created by an exodus of talent. No talent was lost on the OL, so no investment [other than Fluker replacing Jockel].

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As far as depth at the end positions, I believe Seattle went into the off-season banking on Avril not being able to play in 2018. They have..

Frank Clark (Stud)

Dion Jordan (Who showed he can play last year. Not proven he can handle the starting gig he seems to have currently).

Marcus Smith (A decent rotational end that got to the QB a few times last year)

Rasheem Green (Who im guessing is the heir to "Michael Bennett"s position, but will spend 2018 getting most of his reps at pass rushing downs to get another year of bulking up and growing into his body).

 

I think this gives 6th Round pick Jacob Martin a chance to make the team. 

Certainly, not an ideal group, but the depth is there. Frank Clark needs to bring his A+++ game this year if Seattle wants to continue playing defense at a high level.

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18 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I would have to imagine that Junior Galette is on both the Rams and Seahawks speed dial. I’m surprised the Rams haven’t signed Junior yet. They need something after trading away Quinn.

I think it's $$$$ related. They were talking to him, but they don't have much wiggle room with the need to re-sign Donald and Cooks.

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9 hours ago, jrry32 said:

I think it's $$$$ related. They were talking to him, but they don't have much wiggle room with the need to re-sign Donald and Cooks.

Galette has the same issue with the Redskins. I have no idea what his asking price is but he believes he should be a starter and has said that since mid season of last year. I follow him on twitter and he constantly questioned Redskins coaches not giving him more than his usual 15-20 snaps a game in relief of Kerrigan and Preston Smith. Then, he goes on twitter one day and rants how he’ll be starting somewhere in 2018 but he did love his time with the a Redskins. Naturally most Redskins fans jump on the organization and say Galette should be re-signed and get near starter reps - obviously not knowing his asking price.

I commented that I’d like to know where Junior thinks he’d be a starter in the NFL because when I look at rosters most teams either have good/great starters, have drafted a DE/3-4 OLB in the last few drafts they like or will draft on in the 2018 draft who they’re going to give reps to behind a vet.

So, he DMs me. 

Junior: Are you saying I’m not a starter in the league anymore?

Me: (Naturally I back down bc Junior is nuts). So, I say not saying you can’t be a starter, but where?

Junior: Went on to reiterate that he should be starting and getting paid like one.

Me: I listed possible destinations like the NYJ, LAR, Bucs, Bears, Cardinals, 49ers and Seahawks 

He still didn’t want to acknowledge that he wasn’t anything more than a situational pass rusher anymore or a starter on a team that has little as an edge rusher outside of one starter. I think he’s out pricing himself in the market like Jon Hankins. Neither guy is worth their asking price and will remain unemployed until they lower it. The Redskins have moved on from both as they signed McPhee to replace Galette’s role and have Ryan Anderson developing and drafted Da’Ron Payne and Tim Settle as well as re-signed Phil Taylor on the cheap in hopes that he can complete his comeback which all Redskins thought he had last year before he sadly tore his quad vs the Ravens in the 3rd preseason game.

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15 hours ago, animaltested said:

This year they didnt draft a guard because they think 2017 2nd round pick Pocic is the guy, and they shelled out big bucks for Fluker.

A one year, $1.5M contract is “big bucks”? 

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5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

A one year, $1.5M contract is “big bucks”? 

Poor Assumption on my part. But he was signed to be a starter. Point still stands.

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1 hour ago, animaltested said:

Poor Assumption on my part. But he was signed to be a starter. Point still stands.

Anyone signed to a 1-year / 1.5M contract shouldn't prevent drafting an OL early, though.   If anything, given the fact draft picks usually don't have a great impact until Year 2 (especially if the Rd1 pick was at 1.27), 1-year stopgaps should never alter draft plans.      I'd be surprised if that really made a ripple into their reasoning.   When you are 31st in DVOA, you're not just 1-2 guys away on OL, outside of Brown or Britt, no one should have been considered a lock.  

Not trying to shoot the messenger, I get you're presenting the SEA FO potential perspective, but even that doesn't hold up water, given the minimal investment applied (vet min for a guy with his service time is just under 800K so this is not a huge outlay of cash - he'd be a potential starter for sure, but being a backup guy that's still a bargain as long as he's not a turnstile, which is a risk esp. coming off injury).

Edited by Broncofan

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