Packers Off-season Mini-Camp/Training Camp Discussion Thread

[TheOnlyThing]

21 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Teams don't give up on high picks this early into their career.  If you want to fault TT for that, go right ahead.  You're not being realistic, but you're more than entitled to that opinion.

If a player demonstrates he can't play it should not matter that he was a high pick and is still on his rookie deal, he should be shown the door.

Now, I do agree that under the prior GM, someone like Rollins would stand an excellent chance of making the 2018 roster -- not because Rollins deserves a spot but rather because he was a 2nd round pick and is still on a rookie contract.

If you want to praise the prior GM for emphasizing draft status over on the field production go right ahead but that is not what the best team in the NFL does. 

Instead, in New England, Belichik has no problem getting rid of his high draft pick mistakes early in their careers - e.g. Dominique Easley, Aaron Dobson, Ras-I-Dowling. 

I'm confident Gute has taken note of how the best in the business operates.

[Patriotplayer90]

2 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

If a player demonstrates he can't play it should not matter that he was a high pick and is still on his rookie deal, he should be shown the door.

Now, I do agree that under the prior GM, someone like Rollins would stand an excellent chance of making the 2018 roster -- not because Rollins deserves a spot but rather because he was a 2nd round pick and is still on a rookie contract.

If you want to praise the prior GM for emphasizing draft status over on the field production go right ahead but that is not what the best team in the NFL does. 

Instead, in New England, Belichik has no problem getting rid of his high draft pick mistakes early in their careers - e.g. Dominique Easley, Aaron Dobson, Ras-I-Dowling. 

I'm confident Gute has taken note of how the best in the business operates.

Exactly.  And he isn't Gute's guy.  The difference is, most backup OL suck.  If he's not doing anything disruptive to the rest of the team, he's not likely to go anywhere 

[Beast]

1 hour ago, Cheech said:

Bell is clearly a guard.  So is Murphy.  Spriggs is a T, but has seemingly gotten worse since his time at Indiana.

You can't enter the season with 3 true tackles on your roster when your third is spending his free summer time working as a part-time turnstile at his local DMV office. 

I think Murphy is a RT and you have unrealistic expectations. I'm not sure the Giants and Seahawks had a single healthy OT that was as good as Murphy last year (when healthy)... there aren't enough starting quality OTs for all teams to have 2 and you're demanding three... it's simply unrealistic. 

1 hour ago, Patriotplayer90 said:

Murphy didn't exactly get beat by a regular rusher or pass rushing move.  That was some next-level Von Miller caliber bend by Harold Landry.  You have to applaud a good play by a talented player sometimes.

Great point!

58 minutes ago, Cheech said:

He was smoked by a rookie.

Yes a rookie who lead college in sacks two years ago... and his strength (the speed move) is Murphy's weakness. You're not going to match up well every time, of course players are going to lose to their weakness some of the time.

47 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Honestly, this post reeks of lack of a realism.  Would I like better backup tackles than Spriggs and Murphy?  Sure, but I'm also realistic enough to know that a former 2nd round pick isn't going to get cut a year or two into his first contract short of him murdering someone.  Davante Adams.  Remember how many posters were ready to cut him after his sophomore season?  Keep expectations realistic.  As for Murphy, I think we all knew the knock on him coming out of Stanford was that his feet weren't going to allow him to play LT and that his future lied at either RT or inside at guard.  Unfortunately, Spriggs' lack of progression forced the Packers to play Murphy at LT.  Murphy is a serviceable backup OT.  You could look to improve it, but given what the Packers invested in him you're probably not going to get a better bang for your buck than him.

Teams don't give up on high picks this early into their career.  If you want to fault TT for that, go right ahead.  You're not being realistic, but you're more than entitled to that opinion.

Very good post.

48 minutes ago, Cheech said:

Spriggs played after Bell.  So did they throw him out there injured?  Doubt it. 

The OL coach has said Spriggs put on 20 pounds over the offseason and hasn't yet adjusted to playing/moving with the additional weight.

MM also said Spriggs is still dealing with his broken kneecap injury from December, which someone suggested takes a full year to recover from. I'm assuming everything is structurally sound others wise the doctors wouldn't of let him pass his physical and he'd be on the PUP still... but you can be structurally sound and still have problems or pain.

[Beast]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

Over the last 3 years, we've on average carried 9 OL.  We've carried 8 OL twice in the last four years, and we've carried 10 OL once in the last four years.  I think we're more likely to carry 8 OL than 10 OL, but I think they'd carry 9 OL if they had a developmental OL they really like.  You can include the five starters (Bakh, Taylor, Linsley, McCray, and Bulaga) as 5 of the OL.  You're going to need a swing tackle (Kyle Murphy) and an IOL (most likely Lucas Patrick IMO), so you've got one spot minimum that is between Byron Bell, Jason Spriggs, and the collection of IOL.  The guaranteed money attached to Bell makes me question how much the Packers would be willing to release him.

I really liked your breakdown of this until the last line. Just to add to the breakdown, the only times the Packers have kept 10 OL have been when there are two rookie draft picks, they both show potential and the Packers keep both of them (which is why I believe there is a small chance they keep 7 WRs with the three rookie draft picks showing potential).

But back to that last line. If released, Bell's dead cap space in 500K (not a lot), if released Spriggs dead cap space is a bit under 920K. But you keep the best players... not who gives you the least amount of dead cap space. But I think that last spot(s) is (are) down to Bell, Spriggs or Amichia. Of course I believe I almost completely nailed last year's 53 man roster except McCray.

[Norm]

Need the 500k for Mack though

[craig]

• Don't expect Spriggs to get cut, unless it's an effort/commitment thing, ala the Randall eviction.  
• The consensus seems to argue that Murphy/Bell/Spriggs represent sold backup tackles, and most teams have comparable or worse.  Maybe, but I'm not sure it's quite that bad around the league.
• Who knows how they evaluate their guys.  But I think they've tended to keep more OL when some were young rising developmental possibilities.  Pankey, Amichia, Day, I don't perceive guys like that as rising future-starters. 
• Pankey, Amichia, Day, Light, I think any of those guys can go back and hang out on the practice squad without risk of losing them, or minding if they did.  
• So I'd guess either 8 or 9. 
• 8 isn't possible *IF* you keep all three of Spriggs, Murphy, and Bell.  
• If you go with 8, I'd assume that would mean both Murphy and Spriggs looked healthy enough and anti-awful enough to cut Bell.  $500K isn't too much to cut, and that's water under the bridge anyway.  
• Bell looked crummy.  That he was starting ahead of Spriggs isn't a compliment to Spriggs.
• I'm not optimistic on Spriggs, but don't agree with Cheech's eval that he might not still evolve some.  Think adjusting to the new weight, coming back from rehab, he may still be a work in progress.  Also possible that the motivation might improve when you're at risk of ending your career, versus when you're fresh off being an entitled 2nd-round guy.  
• MM made some reference to a "reason" Bell started ahead of Spriggs.  Maybe it's just that at this point Spriggs is an even worse player.  But what immediately came into my mind was that it was a disciplinary thing, and Spriggs had gotten into trouble?  I'd almost hope so, rather than the coaches thinking Spriggs isn't good enough to hold his 2nd-string position ahead of slow-stepping Bell.   

[craig]

Think it's a significant team vulnerability, though.  If you're playing with any of Murphy, Spriggs, or Bell starting, there are things that the offense will not be able to execute or even attempt.  Things that might be useful parts of the offense if Bakhti and Bulaga are both playing.  The talent gap to "next man up" is pretty substantial.  

[Leader]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

First off, he's been through two full seasons so I'm not totally sure where you're getting that half a season from.  That being said, you don't cut 2nd round picks this early into their contracts.  And you certainly don't do it to a position that is starved of talent.  Obviously, you don't cut rookies and you don't cut high draft picks after one season.  The only time you start discussing releasing high picks is after their 2nd year, which is why we're having this discussion.  And even in that situation, you're still hesitant to do so.

I'm not an OL guy. Never played the positions - never been as massive as necessary to do so. That disclaimer out of the way.........I'm a bit on the uncertain side with Spriggs as well. Till he actually shows he's got what it takes - its actually safer to assume he doesnt. Thats not intended to be harsh or overly critical. Not at all. But we've been down and around a few blocks with him already and there's been "holes" in his game (so to speak) that can have bad effect on Mr. QB At The Time. So I'm cautiously optimistic.....or better put: hopeful. Definately not sold. 

[PACKRULE]

21 minutes ago, craig said:

Think it's a significant team vulnerability, though.  If you're playing with any of Murphy, Spriggs, or Bell starting, there are things that the offense will not be able to execute or even attempt.  Things that might be useful parts of the offense if Bakhti and Bulaga are both playing.  The talent gap to "next man up" is pretty substantial.  

Pretty normal at most positions and teams though in the NFL. We've had it happen many times and so have others. Just something that we have to live with. Happens at my place of employment when a higher performer is away we suffer the back ups aren't as good. If they were they would be the high performer / Starter:)

[Cheech]

36 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

First off, he's been through two full seasons so I'm not totally sure where you're getting that half a season from.  That being said, you don't cut 2nd round picks this early into their contracts.  And you certainly don't do it to a position that is starved of talent.  Obviously, you don't cut rookies and you don't cut high draft picks after one season.  The only time you start discussing releasing high picks is after their 2nd year, which is why we're having this discussion.  And even in that situation, you're still hesitant to do so.

Sorry.  2.3 years to figure it out.  My bad.    You keep referring to draft position like it matters.  Brian Brohm and Matt Flynn would like a word.  

 

Take a look at the offensive plays if you want to see what I'm talking about.  (Feel free to argue as well.)

Bell looks comfortable at times, but tries to punch too soon and gets beat as a result.  If he'd let his defender come to him he's in a good position to set himself and lock his defender down.  If he were a rookie or 2nd year player, that might come with time.  He's in his 9th year, so stuff like that worries me.  Still, he's a guy that I'm fine with as a 4th OT or even 3rd guard if his feet translate inside.  (Honestly he's got to be pretty close to McCray.)

Last year we were told that Spriggs gained weight and was stronger.  Last year he still struggled because he lacked an anchor.  3rd year, same story.  He consistently bends at the waist and consistently gets beat as a result.  If you bend at the waist because you lack an anchor you're going to get tossed at this level.  

Compare those two (shooting hands too fast, bending at the waist) to a UDFA like Light, who comes on in the 4th quarter at LT.  He's patient with his hands and he sinks his *** like any decent OT should.  Now - his feet are likely too slow to be a player at this level (see Murphy, Kyle), but his technique is solid.  

 

You just can't tell me that there isn't a guy out there that has good technique like Light with just a bit quicker feet.  Donny Barclay was that guy before his injury.  There have to be more Donny Barclay's out there that can play OT in a pinch without looking like a complete idiot.  

[PACKRULE]

10 minutes ago, Leader said:

I'm not an OL guy. Never played the positions - never been as massive as necessary to do so. That disclaimer out of the way.........I'm a bit on the uncertain side with Spriggs as well. Till he actually shows he's got what it takes - its actually safer to assume he doesnt. Thats not intended to be harsh or overly critical. Not at all. But we've been down and around a few blocks with him already and there's been "holes" in his game (so to speak) that can have bad effect on Mr. QB At The Time. So I'm cautiously optimistic.....or better put: hopeful. Definately not sold. 

Yeah but Leader it's only been 2 years and he's had some injuries. I wouldn't say keep a guy forever but when you Draft and Develop you have to have some patience. That being said at one point in time it was and can still be thought that WR's, DL take a few years to really put things together. Some OL come on great but take some seasoning to, the NFL game is fast and hard. If Spriggs and Murphy fall on their faces this year i'm all for adding in the draft. Lets hope one or both prove to be solid back ups heck the plan i'm sure was for Spriggs to challenge Bulaga so we could likely move on from his contract ( not play i love Bugs ) but i'm sure if we could  have gotten similar play we would have released Bulaga and kept spriggs.

[Leader]

5 minutes ago, PACKRULE said:

Yeah but Leader it's only been 2 years and he's had some injuries. I wouldn't say keep a guy forever but when you Draft and Develop you have to have some patience. That being said at one point in time it was and can still be thought that WR's, DL take a few years to really put things together. Some OL come on great but take some seasoning to, the NFL game is fast and hard. If Spriggs and Murphy fall on their faces this year i'm all for adding in the draft. Lets hope one or both prove to be solid back ups heck the plan i'm sure was for Spriggs to challenge Bulaga so we could likely move on from his contract ( not play i love Bugs ) but i'm sure if we could  have gotten similar play we would have released Bulaga and kept spriggs.

Understood and you're talking to the "it takes time" guy - so I'm not crossing Spriggs off any lists - just want to actually see that he's figured out his issues - cause he's got some bad tape. Far as I was concerned, when we drafted him I figured 2nd rounder from a good school/program (OSU) - has played in tough games - whats not to like? Well - he's got some bad tape - so I'm eager to see some "new and improved" tape before I consider him "safe" at OT - which is a "get AR killed position"

As for Bulaga - I'll be happily surprised if we can get him thru the season w/o another leg injury.

[PACKRULE]

5 minutes ago, Cheech said:

Sorry.  2.3 years to figure it out.  My bad.    You keep referring to draft position like it matters.  Brian Brohm and Matt Flynn would like a word.  

 

Take a look at the offensive plays if you want to see what I'm talking about.  (Feel free to argue as well.)

Bell looks comfortable at times, but tries to punch too soon and gets beat as a result.  If he'd let his defender come to him he's in a good position to set himself and lock his defender down.  If he were a rookie or 2nd year player, that might come with time.  He's in his 9th year, so stuff like that worries me.  Still, he's a guy that I'm fine with as a 4th OT or even 3rd guard if his feet translate inside.  (Honestly he's got to be pretty close to McCray.)

Last year we were told that Spriggs gained weight and was stronger.  Last year he still struggled because he lacked an anchor.  3rd year, same story.  He consistently bends at the waist and consistently gets beat as a result.  If you bend at the waist because you lack an anchor you're going to get tossed at this level.  

Compare those two (shooting hands too fast, bending at the waist) to a UDFA like Light, who comes on in the 4th quarter at LT.  He's patient with his hands and he sinks his *** like any decent OT should.  Now - his feet are likely too slow to be a player at this level (see Murphy, Kyle), but his technique is solid.  

 

You just can't tell me that there isn't a guy out there that has good technique like Light with just a bit quicker feet.  Donny Barclay was that guy before his injury.  There have to be more Donny Barclay's out there that can play OT in a pinch without looking like a complete idiot.  

So who is the D Barclay out there that you can think of?

Odd when Barclay was starting the threads about his terrible play where everywhere. I recall them vividly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder in this case. I want better play from both Spriggs and Murphy but they need reps and time as well. Lets hope they turn the corner and that both Bugs and Bahk don't need a break and play all 16 game.s

 

With that said I thought Day sure played well yesterday is he a pure Center does anyone know or can he back up at guard?

[craig]

Yeah, they're going to give the guy the 3rd year, in hopes he turns it around.  But usually guys who still look crummy in their 3rd camp never do.  I'm hoping, but certainly don't think the odds are good.   

[Cheech]

16 minutes ago, PACKRULE said:

So who is the D Barclay out there that you can think of?

Odd when Barclay was starting the threads about his terrible play where everywhere. I recall them vividly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder in this case. I want better play from both Spriggs and Murphy but they need reps and time as well. Lets hope they turn the corner and that both Bugs and Bahk don't need a break and play all 16 game.s

 

With that said I thought Day sure played well yesterday is he a pure Center does anyone know or can he back up at guard?

I'm not in pro personnel and I'm not about to start guessing who is on the roster bubble for 31 other teams.  Donny Barclay was a different player before he tore his ACL.  He played some damn good football at RT for a rookie UDFA when Bulaga went down.  

 

Two years ago people were moving 69 to LG because Spriggs was supposed to be so good.  Worst case was that he'd take over at RT for Bulaga after his first year as a backup.

Last year Spriggs was beaten out for that backup LT position by a day 3 draft pick (Murphy) who most draft evaluators had moving inside because of his lack of athleticism. 

This year a 9 year journeyman G/T beat Spriggs out for the backup RT position. 

 

Please don't tell me that Spriggs is simply going to make it because he was a 2nd round pick.  (I know that YOU didn't say that, but others are.)

 

 

Now... I completely agree with you on Day.  That guy played with a nasty streak.  He played some at guard and looked good there, too.  IF (and I haven't seen it yet) he can be more athletic than Lucas Patrick at the 2nd level (which doesn't take much) he could beat him out for a spot.  I see a bit of EDS (Or is it ES now?) in his game and on his sleeves.   I liked Patrick 2 years ago when both he and McCray were outplaying Lane Taylor in the preseason.  Hes really solid at the POA, but he just can't move when he gets to the 2nd level.  He looked slower than the RG from the Saints we had playing last year.