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Packers Off-season Mini-Camp/Training Camp Discussion Thread


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5 minutes ago, NormSizedMidget said:

@CWood21

Can't get the quote right so just @ing

We didn't have to give Jordy 10 plus. You acknowledge that, yeah?

I'm aware.  But based on what we've read between the lines, what the Packers were willing to offer and what Jordy would have accepted was pretty damn far.  If there's any truth to the report that the Packers didn't even offer a paycut, that indicates to me that Gute didn't want to offend Jordy.  I know some have suggested $5M was what the Packers should have wanted, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was lower than that.  My guess is Jordy wanted closer to $8M.  Jordy Nelson's cap hit was at $12M or whatever it was.  I don't think you can just assume they'd find some sort of middle ground.  It was either $12M or whatever it was OR him off the roster.

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5 minutes ago, NormSizedMidget said:

But he's got a proven track record and known skillset to produce without it. And the endless trust of our Hof QB to throw it there without.

You can't claim we are ignoring things and pretend that isn't also true, right?

I dont know what that last sentence means - and you dont need to transcribe it. This discussion's 'bout burned itself out.

Nelson was slowing down. It was evident to everybody but those who purchased his jersey. The team wanted to move on. Done.

Allison will either step up / fill in or he'll be replaced by somebody else on the roster or new draft pick.

We'll see what happens.

But the teams moved on and this endless wrangling about "what could or should" have been is fruitless.

We'll see what happens. I'm not fearful that the offense will go under with Allison as the #4 target.

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5 minutes ago, NormSizedMidget said:

I believe in the third current affect. And he'll get lost as someone that they don't fear and that will help. I can't say it's worth not having Jordy. I'm fine with not dropping that whole salary. But I am convinced he'd have taken less. I think he nearly admitted so. 

Let me put it this way. Norm, me, the fan, the nobody, would have had 5 more on the cap to keep him over Allison if possible.

He said they didn't even make him an offer IIRC.  To me, that means the Packers didn't want to disrespect him given all he's done for the franchise.  If you don't think you can't find a middle ground, you don't make an offer IMO.  I do think he would have taken less.  Probably wanted $8M, might have settled as low as $6M.  I just don't think Gute wanted him on the roster at that price tag.

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3 minutes ago, NormSizedMidget said:

You're going to get mad at this.

But based on what you just said, you more or less would rather have inferior supporting talent to help pull coverage because they can't all get targets.

And yes I'm aware money is a factor. But here I think we could have paid for the luxury.

And yes less impact by yards. Sure. Of course man. But you know well enough that yards aren't everything

5 all pros at receiver on one team don't produce as much as separately. That doesn't mean it's bad.

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying when all things are equal, yes I'd rather have the better talent.  But things aren't equal.  You can't justify paying a WR $10M+ for him to be your 4th leading receiver in terms of targets, when you can pay someone a fraction of that price for slightly lesser results.  Jordy Nelson at $10M+ or Geronimo Allison at $1M, whose going to offer the best results over the 70 targets on a per million basis?  I think it's insane to think that Jordy is going to be worth $9M than Geronimo next year.

And it's not just about this year, it's also about the long-term future of the position.  While I've been pretty adamant that Geronimo will be our starting #3 WR come September 9th.  Do I expect him to stick as the #3 WR?  Absolutely not.  Eventually J'Mon Moore, ESB, or MVS will eventually cut into those reps.  Those same reps that those three won't get if Jordy is still making $10M.  So not only are you getting worse production on a per million basis, you're hurting your future.  LIS, our WR situation is the least of my worries.  I just think it's mind-boggling that someone can think that Jordy Nelson at $10M+ is better than our slew of receivers making less than $2M combined when you look at the bigger picture, and not just the basic stats.

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6 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I'm aware.  But based on what we've read between the lines, what the Packers were willing to offer and what Jordy would have accepted was pretty damn far.  If there's any truth to the report that the Packers didn't even offer a paycut, that indicates to me that Gute didn't want to offend Jordy.  I know some have suggested $5M was what the Packers should have wanted, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was lower than that.  My guess is Jordy wanted closer to $8M.  Jordy Nelson's cap hit was at $12M or whatever it was.  I don't think you can just assume they'd find some sort of middle ground.  It was either $12M or whatever it was OR him off the roster.

Oh that's fine. With you that they didn't want to pay that number he got. They had a good feel what he would get I'm sure. I'm not arguing they would have found a middle ground that worked for them. I'm being an arm chair GM lol I would have done it. That's all.

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Just now, NormSizedMidget said:

Oh that's fine. With you that they didn't want to pay that number he got. They had a good feel what he would get I'm sure. I'm not arguing they would have found a middle ground that worked for them. I'm being an arm chair GM lol I would have done it. That's all.

Jordy Nelson got ~$7M from the Raiders.  Assuming he was willing to give the Packers a discount, it's hard to see that number go below $5M.  That to me indicates that they didn't want him at $5M.

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6 minutes ago, Leader said:

I dont know what that last sentence means - and you dont need to transcribe it. This discussion's 'bout burned itself out.

Nelson was slowing down. It was evident to everybody but those who purchased his jersey. The team wanted to move on. Done.

Allison will either step up / fill in or he'll be replaced by somebody else on the roster or new draft pick.

We'll see what happens.

But the teams moved on and this endless wrangling about "what could or should" have been is fruitless.

We'll see what happens. I'm not fearful that the offense will go under with Allison as the #4 target.

You really hate discussing things lol even though I agree, I've said my side far often enough for it to be clear.

I don't have a Jordy jersey. But I really want one lol. My old lady is a cowboys fan and even she and my mom got them. 

And again yeah it's pointless. We know. Everything I've ever said here is worthless. But it passes the time man...lol

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2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Jordy Nelson got ~$7M from the Raiders.  Assuming he was willing to give the Packers a discount, it's hard to see that number go below $5M.  That to me indicates that they didn't want him at $5M.

I'm using AG here. But I think he said we left 2.7 dead cap. 5+2.7

5 more on the cap. Not total. I want to make fun of you but I wasn't that clear lol

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11 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

He said they didn't even make him an offer IIRC.  To me, that means the Packers didn't want to disrespect him given all he's done for the franchise.  If you don't think you can't find a middle ground, you don't make an offer IMO.  I do think he would have taken less.  Probably wanted $8M, might have settled as low as $6M.  I just don't think Gute wanted him on the roster at that price tag.

I thought he said he would have stayed for less but that was probably bs someone spread. 

And yeah I'm sure that's right. Ted was cutthroat. I didn't see it coming. It blind sided me. But I should have expected it I guess.. Maybe

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8 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying when all things are equal, yes I'd rather have the better talent.  But things aren't equal.  You can't justify paying a WR $10M+ for him to be your 4th leading receiver in terms of targets, when you can pay someone a fraction of that price for slightly lesser results.  Jordy Nelson at $10M+ or Geronimo Allison at $1M, whose going to offer the best results over the 70 targets on a per million basis?  I think it's insane to think that Jordy is going to be worth $9M than Geronimo next year.

And it's not just about this year, it's also about the long-term future of the position.  While I've been pretty adamant that Geronimo will be our starting #3 WR come September 9th.  Do I expect him to stick as the #3 WR?  Absolutely not.  Eventually J'Mon Moore, ESB, or MVS will eventually cut into those reps.  Those same reps that those three won't get if Jordy is still making $10M.  So not only are you getting worse production on a per million basis, you're hurting your future.  LIS, our WR situation is the least of my worries.  I just think it's mind-boggling that someone can think that Jordy Nelson at $10M+ is better than our slew of receivers making less than $2M combined when you look at the bigger picture, and not just the basic stats.

Yeah I think you're right he won't be all year. But will start as. 

You know by know but I don't agree on the jump in pay required to keep him.

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Just now, NormSizedMidget said:

Yeah I think you're right he won't be all year. But will start as. 

You know by know but I don't agree on the jump in pay required to keep him.

It's not a jump in pay.  That's the thing.  It's not like a "pay me or else" threat.  The Packers didn't want him at his price tag.  Jordy was "open" to a reduction in salary.  Despite all this, there was no offer made.  The Packers didn't want to insult him, and they released him so he can go where he wanted to go.  The Packers didn't want to poison the well.

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Just now, NormSizedMidget said:

You really hate discussing things lol even though I agree, I've said my side far often enough for it to be clear.

I don't have a Jordy jersey. But I really want one lol. My old lady is a cowboys fan and even she and my mom got them. 

And again yeah it's pointless. We know. Everything I've ever said here is worthless. But it passes the time man...lol

No, no. I dont hate discussing things. Not at all - and the number of posts I make would indicate that - but its based on those discussions and relevant info sourced from elsewhere that I reach a conclusion. I come to a decision point. Its not a hardheaded - dont bother with me with your opinions cause I know I'm right moment - but I dont rehash the same stuff over and over again - then some days later - go over it all again.

I think Nelson was slowing down. I think the team decided it was time to move on. I dont think our talent at WR cant "replace" (dare I use the term with an iconic player) a diminished / slowing down Nelson. Is he done? No. I'm sure he'll be able to work some magic from the slot when with OAK. I dont know who their intended #2 is - but if they snagged Nelson to be that guy, then I think they made a mistake - but thats there decision. Couldnt care less at this juncture.

We'll survive.

 

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40 minutes ago, Leader said:

^^^^^ This.

plus - I think people are definitely underestimating (perhaps purposefully for point of argument) what Allison could do for us this year.

Personally I think people are way underestimating Dez Bryant. Guy was a top 5 WR with Romo just a few years ago and has played the last few years with Dak Prescott who doesn't impress me at all. Take away his All-Pro OL and All-Pro RB, and what is he, an average passer? 

Moreover, if Bryant is suddenly a nobody because of his last few seasons (which frankly are still pretty solid statistically), why are the same people so fired up about Wilkerson? He's literally the exact same story -- and even more so, Wilkerson has a history of basically quitting on the field. Me personally, I am a big believer in the "change of scenery can resurrect or revitalize a career" thing which is why I was all good with the Wilk signing and the same reasons I'm 100% behind signing Dez. 

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13 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

It's not a jump in pay.  That's the thing.  It's not like a "pay me or else" threat.  The Packers didn't want him at his price tag.  Jordy was "open" to a reduction in salary.  Despite all this, there was no offer made.  The Packers didn't want to insult him, and they released him so he can go where he wanted to go.  The Packers didn't want to poison the well.

Yeah I'm with you.

I agree. They are smarter than me. They didn't want to pay what they thought of him

I wanted to pay him 5 more on the cap. Me, Norm. 

Not being rude, sounds that way, but that's all I'm saying. I would have.

 

I would have paid 5 more on the cap to not have the prospect of Allison starting.

 

^^ this is my base, core, everything. That is it. Not disputing a thing else

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