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Packers Off-season Mini-Camp/Training Camp Discussion Thread


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15 hours ago, Joe said:

Great points by Chili. Well done.

I would also point out that we have a much deeper backfield now and a different approach to our running game compared to the Lacy years. When Lacy's weight was in check, he was very effective, but we couldn't find a back-up that could carry the load when he was injured and James Starks was banged up all during that time. We were hoping Jonathan Franklin would be that guy and he appeared to be the answer until....well....sad...

 

Anyway, I think our offense is now much more complex, multi-faceted, and developed than in previous years whereas if Adams were to go down, we'd have the luxury of exploring other options. We'd still have Cobb, Allison is another year older, Monty could flip back out to WR and perhaps one of these rookies could step up; who knows.

Just reading Franklin's name makes me sad.  Had high hopes for him.

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4 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Let me ask you these questions...answer honestly.

Over the last 5 years, is this the worst group of WR's that GB has had?  (Knowing full well that Rodgers will make these guys look better than they are...and that's a huge positive...)

Over the last 5 years, is this the worst offensive line group that GB has fielded?  (This one worries me greatly, our QB is coming off a serious shoulder injury and has an extreme tendency to hold onto the ball.)

Over the last 5 years, is this the worst edge group that GB has had?  (Missing that veteran presence and the young guy with extreme upside presence.)

I've said the DL is better than it has been in a while.  (I"m not down on Mo, but I am higher on the development of Clark.)

I like the MLB's.  (Martinez is one of my favorites now. )

Secondary is a concern, including safety.  But, there is room for optimism there.  Rookies come with growing pains and given how little King played last year, our secondary will be young.

RB in the NFL doesn't matter much.  You like the 2 RB's...I'm good with them too.  I have injury concerns with Jones and Williams lacks vision.  And what he lacks in vision, he makes up for with toughness and physicality.

Better at TE.  (Alleviates concern from WR group.)

But if you look at this squad, today, compared to the last 5-7 years worth of teams, this one is weaker and with many more question marks.  And to be totally fair?  I thought that GB was knocking on the door to a Super Bowl the last 5 years or so...especially the last 2-3 years.  So, my point here isn't that the team is poor.  Far from it.  It just isn't as good, today, as it has been in past years at this time.

 

I don't think we're better at TE, even with Graham and Kendricks. We need to address that position for the long-term and we've failed to do so. I don't think we're set at EDGE at all. We have a lot of good rotational guys, but no reliable starters IMHO. Granted, I'm holding my breath to see how Year 1 of Pettine shakes out, but EDGE, TE, and OL are our biggest needs until further notice.

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10 minutes ago, Joe said:

I don't think we're better at TE, even with Graham and Kendricks. We need to address that position for the long-term and we've failed to do so. I don't think we're set at EDGE at all. We have a lot of good rotational guys, but no reliable starters IMHO. Granted, I'm holding my breath to see how Year 1 of Pettine shakes out, but EDGE, TE, and OL are our biggest needs until further notice.

K.  I agree with you.  Let me follow up...

I think it is a given that Rodgers makes receivers better than they really are, right?  

I think it is a given that Graham can be lumped in with receivers, right?

Graham is better than Bennett at receiver.  Bennett was better than Rich Rod.  Bennett is better than Quarles and everything else we've trotted out since JFin.

For this year...I think we are fine at tight end and sitting better than we have been in a while.  Totally agree on the long term view of the tight end group, though.

I think that the OL group is what has me scared most as it relates to Rodgers and that filters to the WR's/TE's.  

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10 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Let me ask you these questions...answer honestly.

Over the last 5 years, is this the worst group of WR's that GB has had?  (Knowing full well that Rodgers will make these guys look better than they are...and that's a huge positive...) Short answer is yes, not counting 2015 depending on whether you look at pre vs. post Jordy injury. 2014 was close with Jordy, Cobb and rookie Adams but that's a stronger trio than Adams, older Cobb, and Allison/rookie Day 3. 

Over the last 5 years, is this the worst offensive line group that GB has fielded?  (This one worries me greatly, our QB is coming off a serious shoulder injury and has an extreme tendency to hold onto the ball.) Again, the answer is probably "yes" overall when you consider the losses of Sitton and Lang but much less concern here vs. WR. Our OLine, assuming Bulaga starts Week 1 is 4-strong in Bak (the best LT in the league), Bulaga (an upper-tier RT), Linsley (a top 15 center) and Taylor (a "good enough" LG). Moreover, we were fine last year with Evans at RG and I think McCray, Patrick or Madison replaces him without any drop. Personally, I think it's McCray's job to lose and he'll be fine. This position group doesn't really worry me and I think our depth is adequate. 

Over the last 5 years, is this the worst edge group that GB has had?  (Missing that veteran presence and the young guy with extreme upside presence.) I'd say 2017 was the worst edge group in the last 5 years, with 2018 a close second. Haven't replaced Peppers and every year Matthews gets a littler older and tiny bit slower. Last year we had Fackrell, rookie Biegel, and Brooks who due to injury turned out to be pretty much useless. Now, at least this year Biegel is year 2 and Gilbert is year 2. Fackrell is an afterthought IMO. Still a pretty WEAK group overall, but of course it will depend largely on the health of Matthews and Perry as it does pretty much every year.  

I've said the DL is better than it has been in a while.  (I"m not down on Mo, but I am higher on the development of Clark.) This is the strongest unit on our defense with no close 2nd IMO. If Pettine gets Mo to give 100%, combined with using Clark and Daniels the right way up front, that's a lethal group. 

I like the MLB's.  (Martinez is one of my favorites now. ) Average group. No big weakness and nothing special. Martinez had a strong year and hopefully he builds on it. He's still pretty weak in coverage but he's a best play-maker at the position. Ryan is average. I expect to see Burks play a lot and some Jones in certain packages as well. Matthews will probably also see time in the middle. 

Secondary is a concern, including safety.  But, there is room for optimism there.  Rookies come with growing pains and given how little King played last year, our secondary will be young. Biggest question marks here because of all the turnover. CB position was revamped. Like we have two vets in Williams and House. Like the rookies. Need a big jump from King in year 2. I'd say we have the "pieces" at CB for a decent unit, but it will have to come together under Pettine. Safety pretty much depends on HaHa. If we get 2017 HaHa, it's going to be a major setback for our defense. We need him to be a leader and occasionally make a big play or two in the secondary. Jones and Brice will compete for the No. 2 spot, I'm not particularly in love with either, but I thought Burnett was one of the most overrated players on our team for last few years so not a big drop off (if any) in my book. 

RB in the NFL doesn't matter much.  You like the 2 RB's...I'm good with them too.  I have injury concerns with Jones and Williams lacks vision.  And what he lacks in vision, he makes up for with toughness and physicality. Like the RB group. I just hope Jones gets every chance to be the No. 1 guy. He needs to get the maximum amount of carries because he's a game breaker. Williams is solid No. 2 guy and finished the 2017 very strong. Monty IMO is a James White -- a guy who could create problems if used correctly out of the backfield, in the slot, etc. but a guy I wouldn't give more than 2-3 carries a game absent injury to Jones or Williams. 

Better at TE.  (Alleviates concern from WR group.) All depends on Graham. We are paying him to be a "star" in this offense so hopefully it happens. Kendricks is an average No. 2 guy. I'd still like a No. 3 who isn't just a total project at the position, but it's not a huge deal either way. 

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

K.  I agree with you.  Let me follow up...

I think it is a given that Rodgers makes receivers better than they really are, right?  

I think it is a given that Graham can be lumped in with receivers, right?

Graham is better than Bennett at receiver.  Bennett was better than Rich Rod.  Bennett is better than Quarles and everything else we've trotted out since JFin.

For this year...I think we are fine at tight end and sitting better than we have been in a while.  Totally agree on the long term view of the tight end group, though.

I think that the OL group is what has me scared most as it relates to Rodgers and that filters to the WR's/TE's.  

I think most of those guys could fare well on other teams, but Rodgers gives them the best chance at success. This isn't like Favre making Corey Bradford and Javon Walker stars. We don't know what we have in Graham right now, but if he were to get injured, what do we have behind him? 

In terms of shielding potential woes along the OL, I'd love to see an incredibly fast paced offense this year...even more so than in previous years...

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19 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

Like the RB group. I just hope Jones gets every chance to be the No. 1 guy. He needs to get the maximum amount of carries because he's a game breaker.

I've been been on the Jones bandwagon for awhile now. People keep telling me he doesn't have the body to hold up as a No. 1 but i'm glad to have someone in that corner. 

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13 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

I've been been on the Jones bandwagon for awhile now. People keep telling me he doesn't have the body to hold up as a No. 1 but i'm glad to have someone in that corner. 

Jones surprised me last season, in a good way. He's kinda like a slightly taller MJD. I think his body can hold up just fine as well. Watching the tandem between himself and Williams will be quite intriguing to watch, nevermind Monty hanging out as well.

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I would say last year was a weak group of WR's. this year the options look much better on paper with the rookie talent coming in and practice squad WR's with 1 year of experience.

OL in 2018 looks similar to 2017 with RG being a question but also with some fill in players from last year who did well. This group is not in terrible shape as you will see.

RB's look to be be better. 

Edge no worse than last year and with Biegel getting a full off season and Fackrell getting into his 3rd year that group should be the same or better

DL definitely better

DB definitely better

Kicking - likely better with a top punter now on the team.

QB - much better backup QB options now.

Coaching - most of us got what we wanted with a proven DC and I for one am really looking forward to what Pettine and i am also excited to see joe Philbin back where he belongs.

 

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2 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Dude.  You pull a couple of clips.  Actually you found a couple of clips that someone else pulled.

That is not telling of Clay's overall game now compared to what it was when he was young.  Not.  Even.  Close.  

Can he get by?  Yes.  Can he win?  Yes.  But not like he did when he was younger and more explosive.

If Biegle and/or Gilbert were "studs" they would have stolen snaps last year.  If they were, GB would not have signed a one year stopgap in Brooks.  And while I hold out hope for both of them, expecting them to be blue chippers on the edge, for the future, is a very iffy proposition.  And this team needs an edge threat for the future.

K.  Noted.  You are against first rounders in 2019 at EDGE.  You are now on record.  GB is set at the future there with Biegle, Gilbert and Fackrell.  

What did you "pull" your explanation on clay? Your opinion without evidence at all? That's better? Obviously no one thinks Clay is as good as when he was younger but he's still got gas in the tank is the point.

No one stated Biegel/Gilbert were studs or anywhere near it. Just that they're  unknowns and they were rookies. Players do occasionally improve after their rookie year, you know.

I specifically stated I wasn't against 2019 first rounders, just that I'd like to let this season play out before advocating spending both 2019 first rounders at EDGE. Read next time.

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1 hour ago, gizmo2012 said:

I would say last year was a weak group of WR's. this year the options look much better on paper with the rookie talent coming in and practice squad WR's with 1 year of experience.

OL in 2018 looks similar to 2017 with RG being a question but also with some fill in players from last year who did well. This group is not in terrible shape as you will see.

RB's look to be be better. 

Edge no worse than last year and with Biegel getting a full off season and Fackrell getting into his 3rd year that group should be the same or better

DL definitely better

DB definitely better

Kicking - likely better with a top punter now on the team.

QB - much better backup QB options now.

Coaching - most of us got what we wanted with a proven DC and I for one am really looking forward to what Pettine and i am also excited to see joe Philbin back where he belongs.

 

Can't agree with that top sentence.  Jordy was coming off a 90+ catch, 1250 yard, 16 TD season in which he looked like one of the NFL's elite WRs.  Davante had just had a career year and had his bad 2015 long past in his rear view mirror.  Fans are down on that 2017 group in hindsight but there was more excitement about that offensive group going into the season than any offense in a long time. 

I don't think the addition of a couple day 3 rookies trumps the loss of Jordy Nelson.  Heck, last year we added a couple similar prospects and they didn't even make the roster. 

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I'll try and answer these as best as I can.

5 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Over the last 5 years, is this the worst group of WR's that GB has had?  (Knowing full well that Rodgers will make these guys look better than they are...and that's a huge positive...)

I think that goes without saying, but that's also a disingenuous argument.  We had arguably the best WR group in the NFL.  There was nowhere to go but down from there.  Realistically, we weren't going to keep at that level without investing more into the position.  Over the last three years, we've drafted six WRs but only one in the first four rounds  Over the last five years, we've drafted 8 WRs but only two in the first two days of the draft.  There's a direct correlation between what we have invested into the WR position, and your comfort level with the WRs this year.  You want a "better" WR group, which one of your Day 1 or Day 2 picks are you willing to give up from 2016-2018?  The only two you'd give up are Fackrell and Spriggs.  The only WR that made that kind of production that would have been available was Tyreek Hill and let's be real, the Packers weren't even considering taking him.  Instead of Spriggs?  I'm not sure there is anyone other than Hill.  Short of heavily investing in the position early, I think the Packers did the best job at filling a long-term hole.  They took 3 athletic, big receivers and hoping one sticks.  I'd rather invest what we did in our WRs than invest a Day 1 or Day 2 pick into one of the WRs this year.

5 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Over the last 5 years, is this the worst offensive line group that GB has fielded?  (This one worries me greatly, our QB is coming off a serious shoulder injury and has an extreme tendency to hold onto the ball.)

Are we assuming Bulaga is healthy?  Because quite frankly, this is no different than the year we released Josh Sitton and everyone and their dog freaked out about lining up Lane Taylor at LG.  Fast forward a year, and nobody was complaining about Lane Taylor.  We're consistently a top 10 OL, and I've got no doubts that that will be the case this year.  Is it an elite OL?  Obviously not, but it's going to be more than capable of getting the job done.  Much like your WR argument, I'd make the argument that your point here isn't really going to hold much weight.

5 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Over the last 5 years, is this the worst edge group that GB has had?  (Missing that veteran presence and the young guy with extreme upside presence.)

Pre-Ahmad Brooks, I'd argue that our EDGE position looks better than it did last year at this time.  There are questions that I have about our EDGE, but as I posed the question to TOT if you want to invest in an EDGE this year, who are you giving up?  Jaire Alexander or Josh Jackson?  I've already mentioned in another thread that value for EDGE didn't really hit the board until around the 5th round.  WE passed on Harold Landry AND Marcus Davenport, so that should tell you enough about what the Packers' FO feels about their options at EDGE?  Would I like a Myles Garrett or Von Miller?  Who wouldn't, but that's not realistic.

5 hours ago, vegas492 said:

But if you look at this squad, today, compared to the last 5-7 years worth of teams, this one is weaker and with many more question marks.  And to be totally fair?  I thought that GB was knocking on the door to a Super Bowl the last 5 years or so...especially the last 2-3 years.  So, my point here isn't that the team is poor.  Far from it.  It just isn't as good, today, as it has been in past years at this time.

Rosters are cyclical.  I think that's what you're having a hard time comprehending.  A team that was stacked at WR/OL, but weak in DL and S a few years ago will change over the course of the years.  I'd make the argument that our DL this year is exponentially better than the group that helped win the Super Bowl.  Our WRs are clearly inferior.  DB was better during our Super Bowl year, but I'd argue our LBs are better this year.  I think you're holding a wildly unrealistic stance if you think you're going to keep positions of strengths as strengths when you're busy investing in other positions.  There's only a FINITE amount of draft capital you have so if you're using them to fix your holes, your strengths will eventually weaken.

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57 minutes ago, SSG said:

I don't think the addition of a couple day 3 rookies trumps the loss of Jordy Nelson.  Heck, last year we added a couple similar prospects and they didn't even make the roster. 

Last years roster at WR was more "set" going in than this one is - so the comparison isnt accurate. As it was - the only WR we put on the PS that didnt get snagged was Yancey. McCaffrey and DuPre were picked up by others and Clark was brought up late in the season to prevent somebody from pulling him.

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2 hours ago, Leader said:

"Because quite frankly, this is no different than the year we released Josh Sitton and everyone and their dog freaked out about lining up Lane Taylor at LG"

:)

FWIW, Lane had been in front of the coaches and they must have had an idea what they had, to a degree. These are rookies. (I guess not the guys on the roster like Gmo, kinda forgot about that part lol)

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