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Packers Off-season Mini-Camp/Training Camp Discussion Thread


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1 hour ago, Packerraymond said:

Did we move to panic about EDGE now that the panic about how horrible our CBs were was solved by our GM? 

Until week 1 comes I won't be concerned.

I mean I hope we don't wait until Week 1 to be concerned. Seems a bit late.

My point is simply that pre-draft, Gilbert seemed like an after-thought and even MM was saying we needed to add talent at EDGE. But since that didnt happen, now all I'm hearing is that Gilbert is going to take a big leap and be our "surprise" rusher. Seems comical to me. 

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1 minute ago, packfanfb said:

I mean I hope we don't wait until Week 1 to be concerned. Seems a bit late.

My point is simply that pre-draft, Gilbert seemed like an after-thought and even MM was saying we needed to add talent at EDGE. But since that didnt happen, now all I'm hearing is that Gilbert is going to take a big leap and be our "surprise" rusher. Seems comical to me. 

He had something like 6 pressures, 4 QB hits and a sack in the Lions and Vikings games. Not like he hasn't shown some flash in his chances. He was the best pass rusher on the field vs the Vikings.

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9 hours ago, packfanfb said:

So after not addressing EDGE at all this offseason (so far), including the draft, all I'm hearing now is that Gilbert is the 2nd coming and is going to solve our problems, etc. Same stuff every year. My question: Should we have any reason to believe that Gilbert is different than Jayrone or Dezmon Moses, who were previously ordained the next big EDGE gems in GB?

I don't think Gilbert is special or should be a #3 edge guy, but I think he's better than Jayne and Moses. For as far as edge goes, if the coverage is working then I'm sure they can scheme some pressure with DB blitzes, especially with Josh Jones and Oren Burks. And yes, I realize Burks is listed/size as a LB, but from what I've seen, he plays a lot more like a SS, which is good for coverage.

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Some people seem to have unrealistic expectations for the CB group for 2018. Pass rush as well. Young players need a little space to develop without shovelling metric tons of unrealistic hope on their shoulders (that applies to Kizer too). 

I'd be delighted to see AVERAGE play from our collective group of corners, that would be a very nice step-up from what we had in 2017. I'd have much higher expectations for 2019, 2020, but this year has an old guy, a journeyman, a second year guy who was injured his rookie year (and who we knew needed some work), along with two of the top corners from this draft as rookies. Just give us young guys who are getting better over the weeks of the season, and are anti-awful by the end of 2018. If you expect high level play right away from all of King, Alexander, Jackson, then get used to disappointment. Average (this year) will do just fine.

Same applies for the pass rushers Biegel and Gilbert, it looks thin at OLB, but these two COULD provide a spark...........not will, but could. Both are past their rookie year and both have had a season to digest the Packers playbook. Both have shown talent, but haven't had much chance to show it at the NFL level. Hoping that we get get some pass rush help from these two is entirely appropriate, expecting is not. Another reason for hope is that Pettine will have blitzes that use other guys - so while the health of Perry and Matthews is important, there are others who will blitz occasionally, like Jones, or Alexander for example.

This defense was never likely to be a top one in 2018, but if it can be middle of the pack, there is the satisfactory bridge between the awful that was, and the good that beckons from just over the horizon.

"But I went down to the demonstration
To get my fair share of abuse
Singing, "We're gonna vent our frustration
If we don't we're gonna blow a fifty-amp fuse"

You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes, you might find
You get what you need"

Stones.

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2 hours ago, OneTwoSixFive said:

Some people seem to have unrealistic expectations for the CB group for 2018. Pass rush as well. Young players need a little space to develop without shovelling metric tons of unrealistic hope on their shoulders (that applies to Kizer too). 

I'd be delighted to see AVERAGE play from our collective group of corners, that would be a very nice step-up from what we had in 2017. I'd have much higher expectations for 2019, 2020, but this year has an old guy, a journeyman, a second year guy who was injured his rookie year (and who we knew needed some work), along with two of the top corners from this draft as rookies. Just give us young guys who are getting better over the weeks of the season, and are anti-awful by the end of 2018. If you expect high level play right away from all of King, Alexander, Jackson, then get used to disappointment. Average (this year) will do just fine.

Same applies for the pass rushers Biegel and Gilbert, it looks thin at OLB, but these two COULD provide a spark...........not will, but could. Both are past their rookie year and both have had a season to digest the Packers playbook. Both have shown talent, but haven't had much chance to show it at the NFL level. Hoping that we get get some pass rush help from these two is entirely appropriate, expecting is not. Another reason for hope is that Pettine will have blitzes that use other guys - so while the health of Perry and Matthews is important, there are others who will blitz occasionally, like Jones, or Alexander for example.

This defense was never likely to be a top one in 2018, but if it can be middle of the pack, there is the satisfactory bridge between the awful that was, and the good that beckons from just over the horizon.

"But I went down to the demonstration
To get my fair share of abuse
Singing, "We're gonna vent our frustration
If we don't we're gonna blow a fifty-amp fuse"

You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes, you might find
You get what you need"

Stones.

Marshon Lattimore and Tre'davious White were probowl caliber players last year. Desmond King, Adoree Jackson, Marlon Humphrey, and Ahkello Witherspoon all came in and were solid starters. I dont think its unrealiatic to expect Alexander or Jackson to come in and take one of the three starting positions.

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11 hours ago, packfanfb said:

I mean I hope we don't wait until Week 1 to be concerned. Seems a bit late.

My point is simply that pre-draft, Gilbert seemed like an after-thought and even MM was saying we needed to add talent at EDGE. But since that didnt happen, now all I'm hearing is that Gilbert is going to take a big leap and be our "surprise" rusher. Seems comical to me. 

Who cares if we're concerned or not? Waiting until Week 1 simply means taking a wait and see approach through the summer in regards to the talent on the roster. You know, as a fan.  

If the team has legitimate concerns about the roster before Week 1, I'm sure they'll find a way to address them. Pettine has been known to generate more rush from his line (Daniels, Wilkerson, Clark) than the LB group anyway. It might be worthwhile to see these guys put some pads on. 

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1 hour ago, Kenrik said:

Marshon Lattimore and Tre'davious White were probowl caliber players last year. Desmond King, Adoree Jackson, Marlon Humphrey, and Ahkello Witherspoon all came in and were solid starters. I dont think its unrealiatic to expect Alexander or Jackson to come in and take one of the three starting positions.

I'm a firm believer that you prop up your defense early with good offense to give King, Alexander, and Jackson time to learn and go through growing but I am hoping by late season/playoffs they are better than average. I definitely think there are going to be some overreactions to growing pains early in the season though. 

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2 hours ago, Ham Sammich said:

Who cares if we're concerned or not? Waiting until Week 1 simply means taking a wait and see approach through the summer in regards to the talent on the roster. You know, as a fan.  

If the team has legitimate concerns about the roster before Week 1, I'm sure they'll find a way to address them. Pettine has been known to generate more rush from his line (Daniels, Wilkerson, Clark) than the LB group anyway. It might be worthwhile to see these guys put some pads on. 

They have failed to do exactly this for about the last 6 years. Color me skeptical until Gute proves he's not TT. 

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41 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

They have failed to do exactly this for about the last 6 years. Color me skeptical until Gute proves he's not TT. 

Signing 2 FAs in the tampering period, trading for a future 1st and drafting a CB in Rd 1 below Ted's height requirements not good enough?

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4 hours ago, Kenrik said:

Marshon Lattimore and Tre'davious White were probowl caliber players last year. Desmond King, Adoree Jackson, Marlon Humphrey, and Ahkello Witherspoon all came in and were solid starters. I dont think its unrealiatic to expect Alexander or Jackson to come in and take one of the three starting positions.

It isn't unrealistic to expect all three of King, Alexander, Jackson to be starting by the end of the season. Average play at CB is a BIG step up, from what was there.

What is unrealistic is to expect pro-bowl calibre play in their (Alexander & Jackson's) rookie years. It is even a lot to ask of King, due to his missing plenty of his rookie season to injury (and those that follow the draft should be aware that King needed some work on polishing his game). This is exactly what I am referring to when I talk about burying a player under an unrealistic weight of expectation. To hope is fine, to expect is almost guaranteeing disappointment.

Having given them a year, by all means shoot for the moon.

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3 hours ago, Ham Sammich said:

Who cares if we're concerned or not?

Nobody with a functioning brain....and you're clearly astute enough to see that.

Maybe try quoting the more enlightened posters at FF and shine a light on all the great work posted here -  instead of quoting the epic whiners who desperately  crave company for their self-imposed misery. You're not going to make them any wiser, because that's not their goal in life.

I'm certainly not the boss of anybody, its just a suggestion for a better FF experience for all   :)

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38 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Signing 2 FAs in the tampering period, trading for a future 1st and drafting a CB in Rd 1 below Ted's height requirements not good enough?

Nope. Not complaining about Gute's off-season to date. I just hope it's not over like we are accustomed to in years' past. Team has a few more holes to fill and I hope we do so. 

* In fact, you and I shouldn't be in disagreement on this one because I've seen numerous posts from you where you have called for a FA EDGE and/or WR to be added to this roster. I hope we'll agree that if September rolls around that still hasn't happen, Gute will have come up short in at least that respect. 

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When TC opened last year, there was a ton of interest in the 3 rookie RBs and how they would handle pass pro. We'll see how far each of them has advanced since last year, but it appears that Aaron Jones is making huge progress

Here's a clip from Ben Fennell showing how Aaron Jones won the match up with grizzled DC Gregg Williams vs Cleveland. Williams "fakes" the double A gap blitz and Jones handles it perfectly

 

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18 hours ago, packfanfb said:

So after not addressing EDGE at all this offseason (so far), including the draft, all I'm hearing now is that Gilbert is the 2nd coming and is going to solve our problems, etc. Same stuff every year. My question: Should we have any reason to believe that Gilbert is different than Jayrone or Dezmon Moses, who were previously ordained the next big EDGE gems in GB?

The answer to your question is complicated.

I share your skepticism about the current talent/depth at OLB generally and regarding Gilbert in particular.

However, I think several issues merit consideration when analyzing the current status of the OLB position.

Last year at this time, OLB consisted of Matthews, Perry, Fackrell, Elliott, and (an injured) Biegel. (No, really it did).

Elliott was so bad he was out of the NFL by September. Fackrell was so brutal in training camp that the previous GM was forced to do something nearly unprecedented (for him) and sign a veteran stopgap to try and stanch the bleeding at the position. (He also picked up someone named Chris Odom on waivers at the final cutdown. Mr. Odom remains perhaps the most anonymous player on the Packers's roster).

Unfortunately, Brooks joined the Perry injury-prone club and was mostly ineffective in 2017. He remains available if the Pack is interested. (Clay actually held up injury-wise, especially for him, in 2017 despite an increased snap count).

The Perry/Brooks injuries led to Fackrell getting plenty of playing time, during which he continued to contribute next to nothing. Meanwhile, Biegel missed the first half of the season and did little when finally activated.

Gilbert was at last given an opportunity at the end of the 2017 season and at least flashed some ability.

Currently, OLB appears to be Matthews, Perry, Gilbert/Biegel, and ???????????????? 

On paper, I fully understand the trepidation over the position. Two oft-injured (and aging) starters, backed up by young and completely unproven players (Gilbert, Biegel, Odom, and Donnerson) and a draft bust (Fackrell).

Yet, despite the apparent current state of things, with a new GM in Green Bay who (1) repeatedly announces he is committed to bettering the roster through all available avenues of talent acquisition rather than just the draft and (2) is not so wedded to (his predecessor's) premium draft picks that they will get every opportunity to prove their worth come hell or high water, and (3) an innovative new defensive coordinator who does not appear to be lacking a pulse, I still have hope that (a) the OLB production will improve in 2018 and (b) the Packers are not done adding talent to the position.

Finally, it must be remembered that AVERAGE OLB play would still be a significant improvement over what we saw in 2017.

 

 

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