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3rivers

burns and dupree still starting by seasons end?

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I see these 2 in a make or break season but does anyone else here see this?

What would it take for this coaching staff to pull these players from the lineup?

I am expecting by week 8 , once the schedule get more difficult, one or both of them are out. This is a reason why I wanted them to address Edge and or CB in the draft or UFA, and a reason I was initially really disliking this draft as it unfolded .  Maybe we have suitable replacement on the roster for burns (Allen or Sutton)  and hopeful for dupree we allow Adeniyi some chances. 

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You never know, but I expect with the changes with the secondary coach, this will benefit both Artie and Sean Davis on the back end.

I expected a big year from Bud last year. They dropped him in coverage a lot and it seemed to hurt his pass rush (not that it was ever great or elite).  I do believe that by moving Bud inside and on both sides, he will generate a more consistent pass rush.

I do agree with Three Rivers that this is put up or shut time/make or break season.

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They'll both start all year. (1) Tomlin has shown to be stubborn (Blake ring a bell?) and (2) who the heck is supplanting them?

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3 hours ago, warfelg said:

They'll both start all year. (1) Tomlin has shown to be stubborn (Blake ring a bell?) and (2) who the heck is supplanting them?

Exactly.  They're too stupid to draft any competition for either of them.  Passed on Hubbard twice, Lorenzo Carter once, etc, etc.  Same at CB where they could've had Isaiah Oliver in 2 via a short trade up, Josh Jackson, etc, etc.  Some people think the CB the Vikings took at 30 was arguably the best CB in the draft.....30 is after 28 as well.  Stupid.  But hey, lets take a #3 WR with an average ceiling, a backup QB, and a 5th round S instead!  Oh and don't forget about the project RT.  

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As stated, who is supplanting them? We needed competition for both spots, but since we opted to address lesser needs instead of our more urgent ones, we really don't have anyone that can challenge either of them.

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5 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I think they both start the entire year and play pretty well. 

Wishful thinking. Not knocking you for that, mind you... Just not nearly as optimistic as you are. I see 2 backup caliber players at this point.

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51 minutes ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Wishful thinking. Not knocking you for that, mind you... Just not nearly as optimistic as you are. I see 2 backup caliber players at this point.

This is why I started the thread, to see what the long time fans think of this situation.  I don't know where the optimism with some is originating  from since these players have had time to prove they are legit starters.  I am waiting to see who gets pulled from the starting line up first , thats how I see it. Dupree has the athleticism and effort, chase and will hit, but being slow off there snap and lacking countermoves might as well have him in coverage. But why have him in coverage when you could have Edmunds or other CB's? 

I see burns replaced by midseason because I don't remember such breakdowns in the secondary as happened last year so as of now I see burns as the reason but of course could and hope I am wrong.  Dupree might hold on if others don't push for time (Adeniyi might if he gets chance) and if he can get off the snap quicker. I don't question effort or conditioning with these players, but more like coaching and limitations they present their ceiling (dupree slow off the snap ) .  Neither have played like RD1 picks, but more like RD3 or later.

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6 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

You never know, but I expect with the changes with the secondary coach, this will benefit both Artie and Sean Davis on the back end.

I expected a big year from Bud last year. They dropped him in coverage a lot and it seemed to hurt his pass rush (not that it was ever great or elite).  I do believe that by moving Bud inside and on both sides, he will generate a more consistent pass rush.

I do agree with Three Rivers that this is put up or shut time/make or break season.

I can't evaluate like a coach and never watched 2-2 like Kethnaab did.  I don't expect much different from dupree , even if he gets garbage stats. Burns is the player that is most make or brake because I want to see if the breakdowns still occur and he is looking around to blame while the WR scores the TD.   They simplified the D and this shouldn't happen at all never mind a non rookie. 

Maybe dupree inside would work like timmons did. Dupree won't shy away from hitting people thats for sure and the D could use added physicality. As much as I have voiced disappointment with the former RD1 pick (especially as a pass rusher) , if they find a way to maximize his athleticism like timmons, it could help.  He just  might not be playing the right position at this level.  More hits on players like the chad moore hit would be good and inside he could hit RB's like that when they run outside. 

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Burns, I could POSSIBLY see losing some time to Sutton if he does not perform well.  Probably not, but I wouldn't rule it out.  I think Sutton is a baller.  I'm also very interested to see the 2nd year development of Brian Allen.  I really hope he shows something and finds a way to get on the field at some point defensively.  

Dupree, on the other hand, is pretty much locked in at LOLB.  After having not acquired ANYONE either through FA or the draft, there is no one to give him any competition.  FO:  "NO, WE'RE GOOOOOODDD!!!  Bartender!  Another round!"

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9 hours ago, 3rivers said:

I can't evaluate like a coach and never watched 2-2 like Kethnaab did.  I don't expect much different from dupree , even if he gets garbage stats. Burns is the player that is most make or brake because I want to see if the breakdowns still occur and he is looking around to blame while the WR scores the TD.   They simplified the D and this shouldn't happen at all never mind a non rookie. 

Maybe dupree inside would work like timmons did. Dupree won't shy away from hitting people thats for sure and the D could use added physicality. As much as I have voiced disappointment with the former RD1 pick (especially as a pass rusher) , if they find a way to maximize his athleticism like timmons, it could help.  He just  might not be playing the right position at this level.  More hits on players like the chad moore hit would be good and inside he could hit RB's like that when they run outside. 

I am not suggesting a total position change, but rather to move him around to maximize his athleticism and create unfavorable match-ups that would be to our advantage. I haven't seen Burns doing a lot of finger pointing or complaining. I think a lot of the problems fell squarely on the shoulders of Mike Mitchell.  He was the veteran and was supposed to be the leader of the secondary. They looked confused more often than not.  I was a Lake and Mitchell fan, but honestly I am glad to see new blood in the coaching ranks and in the secondary.

I am a Davis fan, so it is put up time for him as well. I don't want to hear excuses from anyone, just play Steelers football.

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23 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I am not suggesting a total position change, but rather to move him around to maximize his athleticism and create unfavorable match-ups that would be to our advantage. I haven't seen Burns doing a lot of finger pointing or complaining. I think a lot of the problems fell squarely on the shoulders of Mike Mitchell.  He was the veteran and was supposed to be the leader of the secondary. They looked confused more often than not.  I was a Lake and Mitchell fan, but honestly I am glad to see new blood in the coaching ranks and in the secondary.

I am a Davis fan, so it is put up time for him as well. I don't want to hear excuses from anyone, just play Steelers football.

Creativity is my biggest complaint against Lebeau and now Butler.  They are very much here's my system, here's what we're doing, go do it.  Where's the creativity to move Dupree inside for a play and have him A gap blitz where his athleticism would be a tough stop, and to boot he can chase almost any QB down?  Where's the creativity to put the NT's on the outside and line up Cam at the 0T?

Just picture if we did this lineup:

Frazier-Hayward-Hargrave

Williams - Dupree - Bostic - Watt

And the call was for Frazier and Hargrave to 2-gap, Dupree to blitz the A gap, Williams to flair into zone, Watt to rush from the edge.  So now you got the 2 outside DL 2-gapping, and an elite interior rusher on a center, an athletic freak coming up on your guard/center gap, and still have Watt pressing from the blind side.  How do you slide protection?  Do you hope the RT can take the NT on the outside 1-on-1?  Does the RB help with Dupree or Watt?  Gonna leave a TE on an island against Watt?  ALl of that seems like a losing proposition.

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This would be interesting.  They use V. Williams for the A-gap blitzer now and he did very well ( 8 sacks).  Leaving Williams on the outside is a waste as he is too slow to cover and really adds nothing there.  Replace Willaims with Edmunds and now you have more athletic players in all positions.

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7 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Creativity is my biggest complaint against Lebeau and now Butler.  They are very much here's my system, here's what we're doing, go do it.  Where's the creativity to move Dupree inside for a play and have him A gap blitz where his athleticism would be a tough stop, and to boot he can chase almost any QB down?  Where's the creativity to put the NT's on the outside and line up Cam at the 0T?

Putting a NG on the outside does not create a favorable situation for the NG's skills.

I wasn't suggesting putting Bud at CB and Burns at OLB either. Other teams have found success putting their pass rushes against Guards who are not as quick as LT's.

Just picture if we did this lineup:

Frazier-Hayward-Hargrave

That is not a lineup that is favorable to our defense. I would prefer to have different options:

Bud Tuitt Cam Watt

Tuitt Hargraves Cam Watt

Tuitt Hargraves Cam, etc, etc, etc... Those are more favorable match-ups for us.

You are also not considering the opponent and who their personnel are as well.

Williams - Dupree - Bostic - Watt

Come on man. Really? I never said mad scientist our base defense! When J-Peezy was around, he played the MLB in the Dime.

Don't be so closed that you completely miss the point.

 

Big Nickel Package with:

Tuitt, Hargraves, Tyson, Cam

Dupree and Watt

Burns, Davis, Burnett, Edmonds, Haden

Nickel

Dupree Hargraves or Tuitt ,Cam, Watt

Edmonds Burnett

Burns Davis Sutton, Hilton, Haden

Burns, Davis, Burnett, Hilton, Haden

You should now see what I am saying. I am not suggesting playing Haden at OLB or Dupree at NG.

And the call was for Frazier and Hargrave to 2-gap, Dupree to blitz the A gap, Williams to flair into zone, Watt to rush from the edge.  So now you got the 2 outside DL 2-gapping, and an elite interior rusher on a center, an athletic freak coming up on your guard/center gap, and still have Watt pressing from the blind side.  How do you slide protection?  Do you hope the RT can take the NT on the outside 1-on-1?  Does the RB help with Dupree or Watt?  Gonna leave a TE on an island against Watt?  ALl of that seems like a losing proposition.

You're right it is because you weren't being serious and exaggerated that point I am trying to make. Create match-ups that favor our defense. That is all. You don't have to be pigeon-holed into this player is an OLB, so that is the only place he can and should line up.

 Edmonds is a Safety, but will play some MLB in passing situations in the Nickel or Dime. Didn't Green Bay do that with Burnett in some defensive schemes? We didn't draft what any elite blue chip defenders, so we have to find ways to improve our defense from scheme and favorable match-ups.

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Williams is a little better against the run, so I think his aggressiveness would be well suited there.  Also in a flair shallow zone he's only responsible for the first 5 yards and hash to sideline.

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