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3rivers

burns and dupree still starting by seasons end?

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@Steeler Hitman I had a big response put out there, but man, you complain I'm being absurd, then you throw out lineups with 1 DL and 1 or 2 LB's (meaning 8 or 9 DBs) which would get shredded against the run, you put out a big nickel with 4 interior rushers, and 2 times you made a mockery by sauing don't move a CB to OLB, or OLB to NT when you full on know that's not what I did.

In your Tuitt-Hargraves-Alualu-Hayward line, who's bending the edge?  Who's playing contain?  Who's applying pressure from the back of the pocket?  Who's collapsing it from the sides?

In your 1 DL 2 LB/2 DL/1 LB who's taking on the OL in run downs?  Who's playing contain?  Who's setting the edge?  Where's the pressure from?

 

Because you know that is funny about all of this...you complained about that defensive alignment I put out there, and that's the Wade Phillips 3-4.  A proven to work NFL defense.

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1 minute ago, warfelg said:

@Steeler Hitman I had a big response put out there, but man, you complain I'm being absurd, then you throw out lineups with 1 DL and 1 or 2 LB's (meaning 8 or 9 DBs) which would get shredded against the run, you put out a big nickel with 4 interior rushers, and 2 times you made a mockery by sauing don't move a CB to OLB, or OLB to NT when you full on know that's not what I did.

In your Tuitt-Hargraves-Alualu-Hayward line, who's bending the edge?  Who's playing contain?  Who's applying pressure from the back of the pocket?  Who's collapsing it from the sides?

In your 1 DL 2 LB/2 DL/1 LB who's taking on the OL in run downs?  Who's playing contain?  Who's setting the edge?  Where's the pressure from?

 

Because you know that is funny about all of this...you complained about that defensive alignment I put out there, and that's the Wade Phillips 3-4.  A proven to work NFL defense.

I know that is a real defensive scheme, but not for the personnel here. I thought that I had referenced the Texans earlier as an example. I know that Wade worked with Denver and now the Rams and has done some very creative and effective things throughout his career. We don't have the defensive talent that those teams do. For example, I could make a base 4 -3 and fill in names, but it wouldn't be effective based on the players that we have for that scheme.

Putting Williams at OLB is a liability in our defense. He is not Mercellous athletically.  We could do it if Shazier was healthy. Wade had and has more talent to work with than here in Pittsburgh defensively. We have to find a scheme successful for who is here. If I misunderstood what you were saying, then I do apologize. I did think that you were being somewhat facetious. I am not trying to get into a pissing contest with you buddy, I am just passionate about these guys doing some different things (or I should say some realistic different things).

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Alright let me explain what I did and why saying talent isn't really covering it:

I took what is a rather standard play for us.  3-4 base buck a gap blitz.  That's where almost all of Williams sacks came from.  Run it 2 times a game and then the OL catches on and can shift protection. They usually did by bringing a blocker off Tuitt since he had 1-gap responsibility.

So how I'm tossing a wrinkle in to make it tougher to block:

1 - Either have Tuitt 2-gap or replace him with a more stout run defender to 2-gap.  A slight wrinkle but not too much.

2 - Flipping Hayward and Hargrave.  This is wrinkle #1, that makes the offense react.  Do the assignments stick with the player or the position?  I would leave the assignment with the player, but if the offense guesses wrong it helps us.

3 - Flipping Williams and Dupree.  Wrinkle #2 with the same effect as above.  To the assignment stick with the player or the position.  Even though Williams isn't the most athletic guy out there, he is good at playing the zone, and he can get out to the spot.  He's not a stiff that can't move.  So let's say the offense adjusts to seeing Williams out there, so slide protection to the right.  Either Watt off the edge of Dupree in the A gap is left un-accounted for.

There are very realistic different things to sprinkle in from time to time to add wrinkles to the defense.

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Does anyone see Dupree excelling being this is his contract season? He is auditioning for a new one be it with Pittsburgh or another team! 

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8 hours ago, MDSteeler1971 said:

Does anyone see Dupree excelling being this is his contract season? He is auditioning for a new one be it with Pittsburgh or another team! 

I think he's going to have a year. I could see 12 sacks. I think he's really close to putting it all together. 

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11 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I think he's going to have a year. I could see 12 sacks. I think he's really close to putting it all together. 

HIs effort is there, and conditioning etc. If he can get off the snap quick enough, it might be a decent year.  I was really disappointed last year so as of now I don't expect the great season contract or no, based on history.  A few more Moore type hits could help us along the way, some FF would help his cause too. 

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On 5/8/2018 at 10:24 AM, warfelg said:

Alright let me explain what I did and why saying talent isn't really covering it:

Sorry that I am just seeing this.  Thanks for the clarification.

I took what is a rather standard play for us.  3-4 base buck a gap blitz.  That's where almost all of Williams sacks came from.  Run it 2 times a game and then the OL catches on and can shift protection. They usually did by bringing a blocker off Tuitt since he had 1-gap responsibility.

So how I'm tossing a wrinkle in to make it tougher to block:

1 - Either have Tuitt 2-gap or replace him with a more stout run defender to 2-gap.  A slight wrinkle but not too much.

2 - Flipping Hayward and Hargrave.  This is wrinkle #1, that makes the offense react.  Do the assignments stick with the player or the position?  I would leave the assignment with the player, but if the offense guesses wrong it helps us.

It is usually by position/alignment regardless of who is there. However, there are a "few times" that a team may change up depending on the match-up.

3 - Flipping Williams and Dupree.  Wrinkle #2 with the same effect as above.  To the assignment stick with the player or the position.  Even though Williams isn't the most athletic guy out there, he is good at playing the zone, and he can get out to the spot.  He's not a stiff that can't move.  So let's say the offense adjusts to seeing Williams out there, so slide protection to the right.  Either Watt off the edge of Dupree in the A gap is left un-accounted for.

I am just not a fan of Williams in space or on the Edge.  I would prefer Burnett or Edmunds based on athleticism. They give up size, but they won't lose the quickness battle. Weakness would be the bigger blockers.

There are very realistic different things to sprinkle in from time to time to add wrinkles to the defense.

Essentially we are saying the same things now, but going about it a different way.  Here or there I think either wrinkle "could work" or at least be there to change up.  We can both agree that what they were doing last year did not work late in the season. 

I just thought of something, I would be curious to hear your response to:  Why do you think the defense progressively got worse last year?  Early in the season the defense was a pleasant surprise.  They seemed to generate pressure fairly consistently early and without blitzing.  They didn't have gaudy sack totals, but I remember them getting after QB's with abandon early.  I know that arguably two of our three best defenders got hurt with Haden going down and then losing Shazier.  However, they still got gashed pretty consistently all year with the Vikes, Bears and Jags having some early success running.

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I don't believe that we will see Burns or Dupree benched by seasons end.  Dupree for lack of competition at the position to be quite honest and Burns mainly because i dont know enough yet about the guys behind him but it may come down to the same issue as Dupree.

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 I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a circumstantial prediction. If Bud Dupree does not finish the season as a starter I believe it will be keion Adams who takes his place

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, wwhickok said:

 I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a circumstantial prediction. If Bud Dupree does not finish the season as a starter I believe it will be keion Adams who takes his place

I will go out on a limb too then. If Adeniyi makes the team, he might get a fair number of snaps. They might be playing various schemes, so the typical starter snaps percentage won't apply, but considering what I have seen from the existing roster, and with politics this team employs, it won't happen until late in the season or if injury occurs.

Will the team have even more or less patience with dupree?  Thats the question at L-edge. If Watt was to miss an extended period of time, it might put more pressure on dupree which in turn could speed up the process. Either way, dupree is out of excuses and under pressure and make or brake season:$

Will they consider dupree playing Timmons spot at ILB? It worked for Timmons, any reason it won't for dupree?  

Edited by 3rivers

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1 hour ago, 3rivers said:

I will go out on a limb too then. If Adeniyi makes the team, he might get a fair number of snaps. They might be playing various schemes, so the typical starter snaps percentage won't apply, but considering what I have seen from the existing roster, and with politics this team employs, it won't happen until late in the season or if injury occurs.

Will the team have even more or less patience with Dupree?  Thats the question at L-edge. If Watt was to miss an extended period of time, it might put more pressure on Dupree which in turn could speed up the process. Either way, Dupree is out of excuses and under pressure and make or brake season:$

Will they consider Dupree playing Timmons spot at ILB? It worked for Timmons, any reason it won't for Dupree?  

I would be shocked if they did.  I think this is make or break.  I don't see the team investing money in him after putting out for his fifth year option if he doesn't start panning out at OLB.  I would be shocked as this would not be a typical Steelers type of move. Years ago, I was a fan of the Steelers moving Mike Vrabel inside, but Vrabel seemed to be a more instinctive football player. Bud is still developing and has a high upside based on the fact that he is a physical specimen, but that has not translated on the field as a #1 draft choice to this point.  Some guys are late bloomers and I remember Keenen Lewis going through this and the Steelers choosing to invest in Cortez Allen over Lewis. Lewis struggled up until his final season with the Steelers and then he took his game to the level we had hoped for a few years in Naw Leans before getting plagued by various injuries.

I don't see Dupree and Timmons as similar other than both are athletically gifted.  I believe that Timmons is a better/more natural football player in my opinion. The same with LaMarr Woodley except, Dupree is a better athlete and Woodley was a much better natural pass rusher. If Bud can become more savvy with his craft and get a better grasp of the defense and nuances that the OL's will throw at him, his athletic tools can help him. Some players can convert better than others, just my gut/opinion, I am not sure Bud would be good inside. 

I honestly believe that Debo could have been a better than average ILB for us in our base 3-4. 

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I'm expecting Dupree to at least have 8 and half or 9 sacks, he'll probably play more at the EDGE than he will as an OLB. The Steelers clearly played him on the coverage based on the fact our ILBs roles are different (Shazier's job is to cause havoc) or athletically limited (Williams) so, it won't be a thing of whether Dupree develops or not. It'll be because he's asked to do the things that didn't came naturally to him.

Now, about Artie Burns. I do expect him to bounce back. For first time in long time I'm comfortable with our defensive backs (not great, but compared to years ago with Blake, gah!) 

Honestly, the next thing we really should worry about is the injuries. 

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3 hours ago, 3rivers said:

I will go out on a limb too then. If Adeniyi makes the team, he might get a fair number of snaps. They might be playing various schemes, so the typical starter snaps percentage won't apply, but considering what I have seen from the existing roster, and with politics this team employs, it won't happen until late in the season or if injury occurs.

Will the team have even more or less patience with dupree?  Thats the question at L-edge. If Watt was to miss an extended period of time, it might put more pressure on dupree which in turn could speed up the process. Either way, dupree is out of excuses and under pressure and make or brake season:$

Will they consider dupree playing Timmons spot at ILB? It worked for Timmons, any reason it won't for dupree?  

I've been saying this quite frankly, that Dupree could be an option as an ILB the problem however is he doesn't seem to be applying himself to the 'craft' of the the game.

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3 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

I would be shocked if they did.  I think this is make or break.  I don't see the team investing money in him after putting out for his fifth year option if he doesn't start panning out at OLB.  I would be shocked as this would not be a typical Steelers type of move. Years ago, I was a fan of the Steelers moving Mike Vrabel inside, but Vrabel seemed to be a more instinctive football player. Bud is still developing and has a high upside based on the fact that he is a physical specimen, but that has not translated on the field as a #1 draft choice to this point.  Some guys are late bloomers and I remember Keenen Lewis going through this and the Steelers choosing to invest in Cortez Allen over Lewis. Lewis struggled up until his final season with the Steelers and then he took his game to the level we had hoped for a few years in Naw Leans before getting plagued by various injuries.

I don't see Dupree and Timmons as similar other than both are athletically gifted.  I believe that Timmons is a better/more natural football player in my opinion. The same with LaMarr Woodley except, Dupree is a better athlete and Woodley was a much better natural pass rusher. If Bud can become more savvy with his craft and get a better grasp of the defense and nuances that the OL's will throw at him, his athletic tools can help him. Some players can convert better than others, just my gut/opinion, I am not sure Bud would be good inside. 

I honestly believe that Debo could have been a better than average ILB for us in our base 3-4. 

What's a better draft pick, Woodley in RD2 or dupree inRD19_9 

Agree about Deebo at ILB, he would have been good there as well. Some players are versatile and gifted and others are just athletic and never will be good at the next level. 

No need to remind us about cortez allen O.o what a flop that turned out to be. I thought it was going to be ok, but for some reason he got in trouble with tomlin and that was it for him. 

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54 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

I've been saying this quite frankly, that Dupree could be an option as an ILB the problem however is he doesn't seem to be applying himself to the 'craft' of the the game.

I don't understand this craft comment . He trained with chuck smith last year and smith thought dupree was ready for a major season. Delusional as it seems , thats what smith said. This is the issue , he trains well, combines well (for those that care) ,  never gets double teamed yet rated 3rd worst by PFF.  He could be applying himself (as it appears to me), but just hasn't the natural ability and most of all is slow off the snap which  is a major problem at OLB. 

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