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49erurtaza

Saints cut Coby Fleener

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3 hours ago, cddolphin said:

Everyone talks about the QB market, the TE market seems more out of whack to me.

Just look at the list of top 10 TE contracts. Gronk, Reed, Kelce, Olsen, and then mostly doodoo.

 

And a lot of these contracts are being handed out before the production ever kicked in. Fleener is probably the best example.

It's that dangerous slippery slope - Kelce's 5 year / 46M and Ertz's 5 year / 42M deals look like great decisions now.   Ertz even more so because his production hadn't matched the kind of commitment - now it looks like absolute genius.  But that's the rub - you really have to be an elite difference-maker and young (so you have room to grow) to be worth that kind of extension.

Part of the problem is how long it takes to develop TE's - it's not unusual for TE's to not be ready to contribute regularly until Year 3.   So there's a lot more projection involved once they hit year 4 - which is when you extend those guys, before they hit FA.     

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56 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Part of the problem is how long it takes to develop TE's - it's not unusual for TE's to not be ready to contribute regularly until Year 3.   So there's a lot more projection involved once they hit year 4 - which is when you extend those guys, before they hit FA.     

I read somewhere that Ozzie Newsome passed on Ridley in favor of Hurst because he believed TE's were more likely to contribute and less risky then WR's in the first round of the draft.*


*Yes I realize that Perriman might have coloured his view on this topic.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, DutchFalcon said:

I read somewhere that Ozzie Newsome passed on Ridley in favor of Hurst because he believed TE's were more likely to contribute and less risky then WR's in the first round of the draft.*


*Yes I realize that Perriman might have coloured his view on this topic.

Ozzie would definitely be affected by the Perriman whiff.  TE's take so long to develop, outside of move-only TE's.   Outside of QB, it's literally the hardest position to learn - so many responsibilities, and so many option routes.   Their responsibilities in a college O just are nowhere as complex.   Plus, the bump in NFL-speed is often eye-opening for the TE's.  

Gronk, Ertz & Jimmy Graham had the year-2 bump.   Ertz & Reed were Year 3.   Olsen could be argued took a lot longer to be a true threat, in his second contract.   And it goes on & on.   Hunter Henry is almost there, but it's now Year 3.    None of the TE's drafted last year in Round 1 are ready to take the big leap except Evan Engram - but again, Engram's not even a true TE - he literally does the slot WR, masquerading as a TE. 

Hurst is the most polished - but also 25 years old.   It would be surprising if he had a year 1 breakout, given the learning curve (although if there's a QB who will feed the TE's, Flacco's one of them).

Now, not taking WR this year might not have anything to do with the TE class, though.  It may have been more about the lack of top-end talent at WR this year.  It's hard to argue that point - I argued strongly that DEN should avoid WR at all costs in a trade back scenario for 1.22 (when 1.5 for 1.12/1.22 plus was being discussed), and while Sutton fell from most big boards, I'd have even advocated passing because the amount of 2nd-round WR talent far exceeded the demand, so guys would still be there Rd3, given the dropoff in talent from similar BPA guys left there, but oh well, what's done is done.

Edited by Broncofan

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I’d argue Hunter Henry was close his rookie year and definitely ready his second year in the NFL. Antonio Gates just blocked that from appearing more evident because of his status @Broncofan.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

I’d argue Hunter Henry was close his rookie year and definitely ready his second year in the NFL. Antonio Gates just blocked that from appearing more evident because of his status @Broncofan.

Henry wasn't ready to take on the blocking/option route roles year 1 - his physical tools were impressive, why he was such a RZ threat.  He was ready last year - Gates definitely slowed him down.   But that's the issue, if you're lucky, it's year 2, unless you are just looking for a glorified WR (which is what Engram really was - it's just lucky for his FFB owners that he's TE eligible lol).   

If you're unlucky and it's year 3, no matter the reason - then by the time Year 4 is rolling around, teams have 1 year of full-time evaluation to go off to decide how to extend these guys.   I've been a huge Ertz fan for a long time - I posted on the Eagles board when the extension happened that they would not regret it, that extension was widely questioned (as was paying Lane Johnson LT $, but I thought that was the right call...at least there, I had 3 years of RT play to judge).  But that was also still based on a lot of future projection with Ertz - that's a big issue with TE extensions, unless it's a Kelce level breakout, there's a fair amount of projection and faith in making the decision.

Edited by Broncofan

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6 hours ago, Forge said:

It cost the Saints 200K more to cut him than it does to keep him on the roster. When that happens, you are terribad. 

 

6 hours ago, navysaintsfan said:

 

6 hours ago, Forge said:

Nope. If he had stayed on the roster, his cap hit was 8m. If you cut him, the dead cap hit is 8.2. So it cost you 200K more to cut him than to keep him on the roster. You're just splitting it over 2 years with the June 1 cut. You're not actually saving anything in the long run, just making it more easily digestible by putting it out over 2 years rather than 1. 

 

3 hours ago, 49erurtaza said:

 

 

$3m saved... I'll take it. 

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2 hours ago, LinderFournette said:

go ahead and bring him TOM. we could use a 2nd Pass catching TE

As a Jags and Saints fan, I’m going to assume you don’t know what you don’t know. Fleener is awful...just awful...and now with a serious concussion history. 

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5 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

As a Jags and Saints fan, I’m going to assume you don’t know what you don’t know. Fleener is awful...just awful...and now with a serious concussion history. 

Not to hijack this thread, but Fleener's a good example of why so many fans loved Luck.   He made Fleener look like a decent albeit limited player.   Turns out even that was a complete mirage.

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6 minutes ago, sammymvpknight said:

As a Jags and Saints fan, I’m going to assume you don’t know what you don’t know. Fleener is awful...just awful...and now with a serious concussion history. 

he cant be anyworse then the 3 backups

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1 minute ago, LinderFournette said:

he cant be anyworse then the 3 backups

Be careful what you wish for.

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2 minutes ago, LinderFournette said:

he cant be anyworse then the 3 backups

He was worse than Watson, Hill, and Hoom on the Saints. If he’s playing for vet minimum, maybe...but the guy is also not likeable...I’d rather him just not be on a team I liked. 

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1 minute ago, Broncofan said:

Be careful what you wish for.

u really think hes better then Niles Paul, Ben Koyak, James O'Shaugnessy?

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Just now, LinderFournette said:

u really think hes better then Niles Paul, Ben Koyak, James O'Shaugnessy?

I actually think Koyack does something for your team besides catch.     Fleener is a 0 in the blocking game.  Paul is a better talent if healthy - and Fleener's not a better health risk.

And here's the thing - Koyack and O'Shaughnessy will stay on the field.   And block.  And be cheaper. Paul offers exactly what Fleener does, but cheaper.  

I have literally no dog in this show.  But JAX doesn't need Fleener.  You're buying into name value alone.

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3 hours ago, Broncofan said:

I actually think Koyack does something for your team besides catch.     Fleener is a 0 in the blocking game.  Paul is a better talent if healthy - and Fleener's not a better health risk.

And here's the thing - Koyack and O'Shaughnessy will stay on the field.   And block.  And be cheaper. Paul offers exactly what Fleener does, but cheaper.  

I have literally no dog in this show.  But JAX doesn't need Fleener.  You're buying into name value alone.

Yeah.  Pretty much.  It wouldn't surprise me to see the Jaguars sign Fleener to a cheap "prove it" deal with zero dead money and let him compete for a spot out of camp.  They were pretty open about how missing on those 4th round TEs in the draft threw a bit of a wrench in their plans, and we're not exactly super deep at TE with Marcedes cut, ASJ promising but with limited track record of success...and all those mostly nobodies behind him.

Koyack and O'Shaughnessy weren't terrible depth last year though, for what the Jaguars offense actually does with their TEs.  And who knows if Fleener is going to want to take a bargain bin "camp battle" type deal to come in and try to win a job.  He's got money, and it's hard to say he's a guy who is going to be super stoked to spend 50%+ of his snaps blocking.

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