Why Aaron Rodgers Doesnt Have 2 Super Bowl Rings

[Norm]

On 5/11/2018 at 2:45 AM, smetana34 said:

 After your Tavaris Jackson comment, you should just keep it in regardless

Remind me of this comment please

[game3525]

On 5/11/2018 at 3:43 AM, lancerman said:

Yeah. in 2011 Brees was pretty much right there and he had an argument for being better (Rodgers just had the passer rating record) and in 2014 I truly believe whoever won the Packers vs Patriots game late in the season was likely going to be the MVP. Then in 2013 Rodgers was injured. So while it's arguable that he was the best each of those years, he wasn't like killing the field. 

Favre in those days was largely viewed as blowing everyone away.

There was quite a gap between Brees and Rodgers in 2011. Brees may have had the bulk stats, but Rodgers blew him out the door in terms of efficiency. And there was not really an MVP debate between Brady and Rodgers in 2014, if anything Romo was a bigger threat to Rodgers then Brady was in terms of winning MVP. 2011 and 2014 were the only years in which it was really "Rodgers then everyone else".  But every other year, the gap between Rodgers and everyone else is much smaller and in some cases, he wasn't the best QB that season (ex. 2013, 2015 and 2016).

[lancerman]

13 minutes ago, game3525 said:

There was quite a gap between Brees and Rodgers in 2011. Brees may have had the bulk stats, but Rodgers blew him out the door in terms of efficiency. And there was not really an MVP debate between Brady and Rodgers in 2014, if anything Romo was a bigger threat to Rodgers then Brady was in terms of winning MVP. 2011 and 2014 were the only years in which it was really "Rodgers then everyone else".  But every other year, the gap between Rodgers and everyone else is much smaller and in some cases, he wasn't the best QB that season (ex. 2013, 2015 and 2016).

Romo was a threat in the same way Dak was last year. More people gave credit to the the RB/offensive line than strictly the QB. I'd advise you to read the board in 2014. By the time of the Packers vs Patriots game alot of people were saying one of these two would be MVP with Rodgers having the lead most of the season. Even in the media alot of people thought it basically was coming down to this game. Romo just got traction after Brady dropped out of contention. But either way, Rodgers wasn't blowing either of them out of the water. He was a few stat points ahead of them in most things. 

And efficiency isn't everything, Brees was right there with Rodgers in 2011. Rodgers record was just more impressive. Any other year and Brees wins that award. Brees led the league in every bulk stat. If the records were equalized it would have been more of a debate, but Rodgers team was better and he went 15-1.

That said, the overall point was that at Rodgers peak and Favre's peak the gap between Favre and the next guy was much bigger. When Favre was winning his three MVP's in a row he was so far above the next guy that it was just automatic. Rodgers really only had two years where you could say without a doubt he was the best in the league. The last three years he wasn't even the 2nd best QB. You couldn't have even debated anyone else for those 3 mid 90's MVP seasons for Favre

[game3525]

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Romo was a threat in the same way Dak was last year. More people gave credit to the the RB/offensive line than strictly the QB. I'd advise you to read the board in 2014. By the time of the Packers vs Patriots game alot of people were saying one of these two would be MVP with Rodgers having the lead most of the season. Even in the media alot of people thought it basically was coming down to this game. Romo just got traction after Brady dropped out of contention. But either way, Rodgers wasn't blowing either of them out of the water. He was a few stat points ahead of them in most things. 

I don't remember Brady vs Rodgers ever being a serious debate concerning the MVP in 2014. I remember Rivers and Peyton dominating the first two months and then they fell off and Rodger got hot and ran away with award, however both Watt and Romo made a late season run. 

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And efficiency isn't everything, Brees was right there with Rodgers in 2011. Rodgers record was just more impressive. Any other year and Brees wins that award. Brees led the league in every bulk stat. If the records were equalized it would have been more of a debate, but Rodgers team was better and he went 15-1.

No, He wasn't.

Rodgers ANY/A was a full point higher then Brees in 2011. He was more productive and much more efficient (Rodgers passer rating was about 12 points higher, that is about the same gap  between 2017 Brady's passer rating and 2017 Tyrod Taylor. ). I bet if Rodgers team finished with the same record as the Saints, Rodgers still wins the MVP in a landslide. He was just flat out better then Brees that year by noticeable margin.  

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That said, the overall point was that at Rodgers peak and Favre's peak the gap between Favre and the next guy was much bigger. When Favre was winning his three MVP's in a row he was so far above the next guy that it was just automatic. Rodgers really only had two years where you could say without a doubt he was the best in the league. The last three years he wasn't even the 2nd best QB. You couldn't have even debated anyone else for those 3 mid 90's MVP seasons for Favre

Yes, I agree with this. 

Rodgers (outside of 2011 and 2014) never had a large gap over the his contemporaries that Favre did. Maybe that is due to the QB's being better in his era (granted it isn't like the QBs in the mid-90s were scrubs). 

[childofpudding]

2014 is a better what-if IMO. Rodgers was injured, for that and due to SEA defense, he played poorly in the NFCC and turned it over a bunch. Plus he didnt go after a hobbled Sherman. If he was healthy, GB wins. If he threw it better or went after Sherman, GB wins. And then they have a really good chance vs NE in the SB.

Pointing to that one poor call midseason in 2011 and following the butterfly effect so far with so many variables is just a bit much IMO.

[Ketchup]

7 hours ago, lancerman said:

That said, the overall point was that at Rodgers peak and Favre's peak the gap between Favre and the next guy was much bigger. When Favre was winning his three MVP's in a row he was so far above the next guy that it was just automatic. Rodgers really only had two years where you could say without a doubt he was the best in the league. The last three years he wasn't even the 2nd best QB. You couldn't have even debated anyone else for those 3 mid 90's MVP seasons for Favre

What point is this supposed to make? How does Favre having less competition in the league during his MVP years somehow help his argument? If anything it should hurt it. Rodgers has won two MVP’s while playing with GOAT level guys like Manning and Brady and a stat monster like Brees. 

Level of competition shouldn’t be a factor here when comparing Favre’s MVP’s to Rodgers because that’s something neither player can control so why use it as a knock on one or an advantage for the other. 

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, Ketchup said:

What point is this supposed to make? How does Favre having less competition in the league during his MVP years somehow help his argument? If anything it should hurt it. Rodgers has won two MVP’s while playing with GOAT level guys like Manning and Brady and a stat monster like Brees. 

Level of competition shouldn’t be a factor here when comparing Favre’s MVP’s to Rodgers because that’s something neither player can control so why use it as a knock on one or an advantage for the other. 

That's not the point. There was a stretch of years in the NFL where Favre was the undisputed best QB in the league by a wide margin and nobody questioned it and it was him and eevryone else. From 1995 until Kurt Warner's MVP in 1999, Brett Favre was the nest QB in the NFL and it wasn't up for debate.

In Rodgers entire career which has been roughly ten years, there were 2 years where you could even say he was absolutely the best QB if that. We won't count before he was a starter. 2008 he definitley wasn't. 2009 Brees and Manning were way ahead of him. 2010 Brady and Vick were well ahead of him (Brees' too tbh). He was the best in 2011. 2012 he was in the discussion. 2013 Manning blew him out of the water. 2014 he was the best again. 2015 Cam Newton and Tom Brady were well ahead of him. 2016 Matt Ryan, Tom Brady, and probably even Derek Carr were ahead of him. Last year he was injured for most of the season but Brady and Wentz were clearly the class of the NFL and Brees had another sharp year as well. 

In the 10 years he's been starting Manning won more MVP's and truthfully was better than him in 2008, 2009, 2012, 2013. Brady won as many MVP's and was better than him in 2010, 2015, 2016, and 2017. And alot of those years he wouldn't have even been second best. Brees was ahead of him in 2009 and probably 2012. Obviously the last two MVP's were ahead of him in 2015 and 2016

He's a great great QB. But for as good as he was, he never ran the league the way some other guys did. The two guys that were trading off being the best in the league before he was there (Brady and Manning) did the same thing after he became a starter. The point was, when Favre's peak actually was more dominant. 

[Jakuvious]

Favre was the best unquestionably because the other QBs in the league at that time just weren't all that good. Favre hit his stride just as the previous era of QBs were all hitting their decline (Montana, Young, Marino, even Moon and Elway were all declining by '95.) Aikman held steady, but he never had the production to be MVP. Young still had his moments, but was too oft injured to produce enough to get MVP by the mid-90s. '94 was his last season starting 16 games and his last MVP. Favre was aided by timing heavily. In 1995, when he got his first MVP, he led in yards and TDs. The next best guy in bulk passing was Scott Mitchell in Detroit. Jim Harbaugh led the league in QB rating that year. Steve Bono had the most wins. In 1996, Mark Brunell led the league in yards. Testeverde was second to Favre in TDs.  Steve Young led the league in QB rating but injuries kept him to just 316 passes. In 1997, Jeff George led the league in yards and was 2nd in TDs. Steve Young again led in QB rating but was hurt. Kordell Stewart and Chris Chandler were pro-bowlers.

They just weren't good years for QB play outside of Favre. The guys who were producing weren't on good teams or were doing it with poor efficiency. Jeff George, Vinny Testeverde, Scott Mitchell, Jeff Blake all had numbers at various points in that 3 year stretch, but none were big names and they were on bad or mediocre teams while they were doing it. The guys racking up wins were guys like Bono or GrBac or Stewart or honestly, even Aikman at that point. Guys just kind of managing the game. Even Elway wasn't being asked to carry anymore. Your only true competition to Favre was Young, who couldn't stay healthy. There were no Mannings or Bradys or even Brees back then, winning 10+ games annually while carrying the offense through passing attempts. That's why Favre was clearly the #1 and Rodgers wasn't. Not because Favre was better. But because of circumstance. He shouldn't get credit for that.

 

I do also want to say, lancerman, you say Favre was the best until Warner got MVP in 1999. He wasn't. Favre was not the best in 98. 95, 96, 97, yes, but in 98 he was outclassed by at least two QBs. Cunningham was nuts that year and Young had a nice resurgence. Testeverde probably outplayed him that year as well but I won't pretend to remember 1998 Vinny Testeverde. 1998 was the first resurgence of sloppy Favre after his MVP campaigns. When he threw caution to the wind and passes to defenders.

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, Jakuvious said:

Favre was the best unquestionably because the other QBs in the league at that time just weren't all that good. Favre hit his stride just as the previous era of QBs were all hitting their decline (Montana, Young, Marino, even Moon and Elway were all declining by '95.) Aikman held steady, but he never had the production to be MVP. Young still had his moments, but was too oft injured to produce enough to get MVP by the mid-90s. '94 was his last season starting 16 games and his last MVP. Favre was aided by timing heavily. In 1995, when he got his first MVP, he led in yards and TDs. The next best guy in bulk passing was Scott Mitchell in Detroit. Jim Harbaugh led the league in QB rating that year. Steve Bono had the most wins. In 1996, Mark Brunell led the league in yards. Testeverde was second to Favre in TDs.  Steve Young led the league in QB rating but injuries kept him to just 316 passes. In 1997, Jeff George led the league in yards and was 2nd in TDs. Steve Young again led in QB rating but was hurt. Kordell Stewart and Chris Chandler were pro-bowlers.

They just weren't good years for QB play outside of Favre. The guys who were producing weren't on good teams or were doing it with poor efficiency. Jeff George, Vinny Testeverde, Scott Mitchell, Jeff Blake all had numbers at various points in that 3 year stretch, but none were big names and they were on bad or mediocre teams while they were doing it. The guys racking up wins were guys like Bono or GrBac or Stewart or honestly, even Aikman at that point. Guys just kind of managing the game. Even Elway wasn't being asked to carry anymore. Your only true competition to Favre was Young, who couldn't stay healthy. There were no Mannings or Bradys or even Brees back then, winning 10+ games annually while carrying the offense through passing attempts. That's why Favre was clearly the #1 and Rodgers wasn't. Not because Favre was better. But because of circumstance. He shouldn't get credit for that.

 

I do also want to say, lancerman, you say Favre was the best until Warner got MVP in 1999. He wasn't. Favre was not the best in 98. 95, 96, 97, yes, but in 98 he was outclassed by at least two QBs. Cunningham was nuts that year and Young had a nice resurgence. Testeverde probably outplayed him that year as well but I won't pretend to remember 1998 Vinny Testeverde. 1998 was the first resurgence of sloppy Favre after his MVP campaigns. When he threw caution to the wind and passes to defenders.

You're right I forgot about Cunningham. I keep forgetting about that team

[Bolts223]

6 hours ago, lancerman said:

That's not the point. There was a stretch of years in the NFL where Favre was the undisputed best QB in the league by a wide margin and nobody questioned it and it was him and eevryone else. From 1995 until Kurt Warner's MVP in 1999, Brett Favre was the nest QB in the NFL and it wasn't up for debate.

In Rodgers entire career which has been roughly ten years, there were 2 years where you could even say he was absolutely the best QB if that. We won't count before he was a starter. 2008 he definitley wasn't. 2009 Brees and Manning were way ahead of him. 2010 Brady and Vick were well ahead of him (Brees' too tbh). He was the best in 2011. 2012 he was in the discussion. 2013 Manning blew him out of the water. 2014 he was the best again. 2015 Cam Newton and Tom Brady were well ahead of him. 2016 Matt Ryan, Tom Brady, and probably even Derek Carr were ahead of him. Last year he was injured for most of the season but Brady and Wentz were clearly the class of the NFL and Brees had another sharp year as well. 

In the 10 years he's been starting Manning won more MVP's and truthfully was better than him in 2008, 2009, 2012, 2013. Brady won as many MVP's and was better than him in 2010, 2015, 2016, and 2017. And alot of those years he wouldn't have even been second best. Brees was ahead of him in 2009 and probably 2012. Obviously the last two MVP's were ahead of him in 2015 and 2016

He's a great great QB. But for as good as he was, he never ran the league the way some other guys did. The two guys that were trading off being the best in the league before he was there (Brady and Manning) did the same thing after he became a starter. The point was, when Favre's peak actually was more dominant. 

I think that this says more about the other QB's at the time than it does about the Favre/Rodgers debate.

After Favre, the next best QB's were some variation of Steve Young, Warren Moon, and John Elway. All great QB's, but they were all past their prime at this point. 

Rodgers played during a time were in consisted of Brady, Manning and Brees all playing at incredibly high levels. 

If Steve Young replicates his 1994 season in 1995 or 1996, then it's not just Favre and everyone else.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Wining a Super Bowl is hard no matter how good you are as a quarterback. That's why Rodgers, and some of the best to ever play the position don't even have multiple rings. Or even one like Moon, Fouts, or Kelly.

[Pugger]

12 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

Wining a Super Bowl is hard no matter how good you are as a quarterback. That's why Rodgers, and some of the best to ever play the position don't even have multiple rings. Or even one like Moon, Fouts, or Kelly.

And Marino.

[smetana34]

On 5/12/2018 at 3:24 PM, NormSizedMidget said:

Remind me of this comment please

I forget verbatim what it was, but something about the NFCN gladly ushering in the Rodgers era and Jackson being the better QB when it was all said and done. 

 

@incognito_man would know. It was in his sig for quite some time

[smetana34]

4 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Wining a Super Bowl is hard no matter how good you are as a quarterback. That's why Rodgers, and some of the best to ever play the position don't even have multiple rings. Or even one like Moon, Fouts, or Kelly.

Out of curiosity, do the fan bases complain about the front offices of those QBs too? In Wisconsin, there's a ton of complaining that the front office isn't doing enough and is wasting Rodgers. I tend not to listen to it, but was that same sentiment thrown around for these players?

[TecmoSuperJoe]

5 hours ago, smetana34 said:

Out of curiosity, do the fan bases complain about the front offices of those QBs too? In Wisconsin, there's a ton of complaining that the front office isn't doing enough and is wasting Rodgers. I tend not to listen to it, but was that same sentiment thrown around for these players?

Every fanbase complains about their front office. Especially in this era. Even the Patriots fanbase I'm sure.