Shaun Alexander; HOFer?

[AkronsWitness]

This isnt the NBA where anyone who has made 5 All-Star games gets a HOF nod. Alexander had 3 good pro bowl years and 2 great years. He has a good little window but to say Alexander was some legendary RB is wrong

[JAF-N72EX]

39 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

What I said your point?  What are you trying to say?

Oh boy. Just...never mind.....smh. Those numbers were not made up like you claimed. I leave it at that.

 

 

[Kiwibrown]

9 hours ago, Thelonebillsfan said:

Priest Holmes was better tbqh. Underrated RB from a historical perspective, vicious runner.

I loved Preist, he is in my HOF. 

[Kiwibrown]

2 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

To be a HoF player, you need to have longevity.  

I hate this argument for the HOF. If guys dominates (not Alexander in this case) then I think they should be in the hall even if it just for a few years. 

I would put Randy Moss in the HOF for his first 3 years in Minny, he did stuff no one has ever done before from a highlight and from a numbers perspective. 

JJ Watt is a HOf in my book if he never plays another snap. 

one more year for Odel IMO. 

I prefer dominance to accumulators 

[MacReady]

Just now, Kiwibrown said:

I prefer dominance to accumulators 

It depends on the circumstances of their retirement for me.  If injuries knocked them out, yes.  They deserve HoF inclusion.  If new teams or new teammates changes how they perform and they had 5-ish dominant seasons, then got a new coach or something, I disagree. 

Look at Clinton Portis.  In his first two years, he rushed for 3,000 yards and had 29 touchdowns.  1,500 + yards on 272 and 290 carries.  He hit 1,500 yards one more time in his career (on 343 attempts) with Washington.  He never topped 11 touchdowns in a season again.  Reueben Droughns had 1200 yards and 6 touchdowns for the Broncos the year after Portis left. 

Gotta be able to show that you can sustain the success. 

[Malik]

Shaun Alexander is a tier with players like Tiki Barber, Arian Foster, and Ahman Green where they were great players for their teams for a good period of time but should only worry about when they get their jersey hung up in their stadium.

[game3525]

He is top 15 all-time in total touchdowns and everyone in the top 20 is either in or going to be in the hall of fame. And no matter how much some people want to spin it, TD getting in set a new precedent. So yeah, he probably should get in. 

[MacReady]

Just now, JustAnotherFan said:

Oh boy. Just...never mind.....smh. Those numbers were not made up like you claimed. I leave it at that.

Then why don't you quit being obnoxious and tell me how the numbers weren't made up.  You're counting playoffs, but I already mentioned why that doesn't matter.  Shaun Alexander didn't have this massive amount of touches that you claim he did.  In fact, he ranks 66th all-time in most touches in a season.  In 2005, Shaun Alexander had less touches at 28 than Tiki Barber had at 30. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/touches_single_season.htm

Tiki Barber had 411 touches in the regular season in 2005.  He had 12 more touches in the postseason.  At 30 years old, Barber had 42 touches.
The following season, he rushed for 1,600 yards.

Shaun Alexander had 448 total touches (including postseason) in 2005. 
He never reached 1,000 yards again. 

So how about instead of shaking your head, you explain how it's fair to blame workload on Shaun Alexander falling apart when a player 2 years older than him had more regular season touches two years older and managed 1,600 yards the year after? 

Shaun Alexander was never once in his career top 3 in touches.  Ladanian Tomlinson was top 3 4 times in his career.  That didn't stop Tomlinson from rushing for 1,200 yards in 7 straight seasons.  Alexander couldn't make it 4 seasons of 1,200 yards rushing.  Even as recent as 2003-2007 was a completely different era in football.  Alexander does NOT stack up to his contemporaries, and it has nothing to do with the number of touches he had. 

Ladanian Tomlinson had more regular season touches every single year he was in the league than Alexander.  Every single year.  Tomlinson had 156 touches in 6 playoff games. 

In 2005, Ladanian had 20 less touches than Alexander (including playoffs).  If you think 20 extra touches is enough to wreck a running back's career, you're just flat out wrong. 

Including playoffs, Shaun Alexander's highest number of touches was 448.  That was 2005. 
Ladanian Tomlinson had 451 touches in no playoff games in 2002.
Eddie George had 488 touches in 2000 (including playoffs.  He managed 2 more 1,000 yard seasons and a 900 yard season.
Edgerin James had 474 touches in 2000. 

Between 2000 and 2006, 4 running backs had more than 448 touches without playoffs factored in. 

In fact, let's compare Alexander's 3 highest touch seasons WITH his postseason touches and compare it to a few of his contemporaries WITHOUT their playoff touches.

Shaun Alexander's highest amount of touches (448, 392, 389).  Remember, those three seasons INCLUDE playoffs.

LaDainian Tomlinson - 404 touches, 390 touches, 392 touches, 413 touches, 451 touches, 398 touches.  NOT including playoff touches.
Clinton Portis - 382 touches, 383 touches, 370 touches, 372 touches.
Edgerrin James - 404 touches, 385 touches, 431 touches, 361 touches
Steven Jackson - 436 touches, 376, 375.
Tiki Barber - 385 touches, 411 touches, 374 touches,

Apart from those three seasons, Alexander never had 360 or more touches in a season.  Three seasons above 360 touches and I just listed five of his contemporaries that had at least three seasons above 360 touches WITHOUT factoring in playoff touches.

I hate to break it to you, but 2000-2008 was a different era for running backs.  There were few running backs by committees.  Why is this important?  Because you can't switch players outside of their time and compare them to other running backs or players at their positions.  You have to compare them to their contemporaries.  Alexander was not as durable as the other running backs of his time, and it sure as hell wasn't because he was getting a massive amount of touches more than them. 

 

 

[TENINCH]

Alexander making the HOF would be worse than Curtin Martin or Art Monk getting elected.

[MacReady]

Just now, game3525 said:

He is top 15 all-time in total touchdowns and everyone in the top 20 is either in or going to be in the hall of fame. And no matter how much some people want to spin it, TD getting in set a new precedent. So yeah, he probably should get in. 

Priest Holmes had 14 less rushing touchdowns.  Clinton Portis had 25 less. 

Every running back with at least 80 rushing touchdowns except Jim Taylor and Priest Holmes have at least 10,000 rushing yards.  Taylor was a fullback and had 8,500 yards rushing.  Are we really going to put a player in the Hall of Fame for averaging 17 touchdowns over five years and then doing nothing starting the year Steve Hutchinson leaves? 

Steve Hutchinson - all pro in 2003, 2005.
Robbie Tobeck - Pro bowl 2005
Walter Jones - all pro 2004, 2005

We're going to give Alexander all the credit for 27 touchdowns when he had a Hall of Fame tackle, potential Hall of Fame guard and a pro bowl center? 

He also had a first team all-pro fullback blocking for him.

So you've got 3 all-pro selections blocking for Alexander the year he hit 27 touchdowns and we're going to act like that's enough to get him into the Hall of Fame? 
 

[game3525]

Quote

Priest Holmes had 14 less rushing touchdowns.  Clinton Portis had 25 less. 

And? Neither cracked the 100 td benchmark. Alexander is going to be the only one with over 100 touchdowns not in the NFL HOF.

Quote

Every running back with at least 80 rushing touchdowns except Jim Taylor and Priest Holmes have at least 10,000 rushing yards.  Taylor was a fullback and had 8,500 yards rushing.  Are we really going to put a player in the Hall of Fame for averaging 17 touchdowns over five years and then doing nothing starting the year Steve Hutchinson leaves? 

Steve Hutchinson - all pro in 2003, 2005.
Robbie Tobeck - Pro bowl 2005
Walter Jones - all pro 2004, 2005

We're going to give Alexander all the credit for 27 touchdowns when he had a Hall of Fame tackle, potential Hall of Fame guard and a pro bowl center? 

He also had a first team all-pro fullback blocking for him.

So you've got 3 all-pro selections blocking for Alexander the year he hit 27 touchdowns and we're going to act like that's enough to get him into the Hall of Fame? 

If we are going to throw Alexander out for playing behind a great OL, then throw Davis (and quite a few other HOF RBs) out as well. At least in Alexander's case, the Seahawks running game fell apart when he declined, I can't say the same for the Broncos when Davis blew out his knee. Hell, Emmitt Smith became a compiler when Dallas line began to decline in the mid-90s and Marshall Faulk's saw a noticeable jump in his numbers and efficiency once he started to play for the Rams behind their great OL. You are opening up a can of worms when you start to single out certain RBs for playing behind great OL's.

Also the Hutchinson narrative is overblown. Alexander started to decline because his body began to wear out due to a heavy workload, the same thing happened to LT at the same age. 

[JAF-N72EX]

33 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Then why don't you quit being obnoxious and tell me how the numbers weren't made up.  You're counting playoffs, but I already mentioned why that doesn't matter.  Shaun Alexander didn't have this massive amount of touches that you claim he did.  In fact, he ranks 66th all-time in most touches in a season.  In 2005, Shaun Alexander had less touches at 28 than Tiki Barber had at 30. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/touches_single_season.htm

Tiki Barber had 411 touches in the regular season in 2005.  He had 12 more touches in the postseason.  At 30 years old, Barber had 42 touches.
The following season, he rushed for 1,600 yards.

Shaun Alexander had 448 total touches (including postseason) in 2005. 
He never reached 1,000 yards again. 

So how about instead of shaking your head, you explain how it's fair to blame workload on Shaun Alexander falling apart when a player 2 years older than him had more regular season touches two years older and managed 1,600 yards the year after? 

Shaun Alexander was never once in his career top 3 in touches.  Ladanian Tomlinson was top 3 4 times in his career.  That didn't stop Tomlinson from rushing for 1,200 yards in 7 straight seasons.  Alexander couldn't make it 4 seasons of 1,200 yards rushing.  Even as recent as 2003-2007 was a completely different era in football.  Alexander does NOT stack up to his contemporaries, and it has nothing to do with the number of touches he had. 

Ladanian Tomlinson had more regular season touches every single year he was in the league than Alexander.  Every single year.  Tomlinson had 156 touches in 6 playoff games. 

In 2005, Ladanian had 20 less touches than Alexander (including playoffs).  If you think 20 extra touches is enough to wreck a running back's career, you're just flat out wrong. 

Including playoffs, Shaun Alexander's highest number of touches was 448.  That was 2005. 
Ladanian Tomlinson had 451 touches in no playoff games in 2002.
Eddie George had 488 touches in 2000 (including playoffs.  He managed 2 more 1,000 yard seasons and a 900 yard season.
Edgerin James had 474 touches in 2000. 

Between 2000 and 2006, 4 running backs had more than 448 touches without playoffs factored in. 

In fact, let's compare Alexander's 3 highest touch seasons WITH his postseason touches and compare it to a few of his contemporaries WITHOUT their playoff touches.

Shaun Alexander's highest amount of touches (448, 392, 389).  Remember, those three seasons INCLUDE playoffs.

LaDainian Tomlinson - 404 touches, 390 touches, 392 touches, 413 touches, 451 touches, 398 touches.  NOT including playoff touches.
Clinton Portis - 382 touches, 383 touches, 370 touches, 372 touches.
Edgerrin James - 404 touches, 385 touches, 431 touches, 361 touches
Steven Jackson - 436 touches, 376, 375.
Tiki Barber - 385 touches, 411 touches, 374 touches,

Apart from those three seasons, Alexander never had 360 or more touches in a season.  Three seasons above 360 touches and I just listed five of his contemporaries that had at least three seasons above 360 touches WITHOUT factoring in playoff touches.

I hate to break it to you, but 2000-2008 was a different era for running backs.  There were few running backs by committees.  Why is this important?  Because you can't switch players outside of their time and compare them to other running backs or players at their positions.  You have to compare them to their contemporaries.  Alexander was not as durable as the other running backs of his time, and it sure as hell wasn't because he was getting a massive amount of touches more than them. 

 

 

What in the world does any of this have to do with whether Steve Hutchinson leaving for Minnesota was the cause of Alexander's drop in production or not??? 

Did you even read what I was responding to before going off about making up numbers and going on, not one but two, 4000 character rants that was nothing even remotely related to anything I said? 

And again, those numbers were not made up. How are you going to say that I made them up and then continue to post them?

Jesus, this forum has has gone to crap. The reading and comprehension level on this site has gone down badly. It's as if nobody bothers to read anything more than 1 sentence anymore.

[MacReady]

Just now, JustAnotherFan said:

What in the world does any of this have to do with whether Steve Hutchinson leaving for Minnesota was the cause of Alexander's drop in production or not??? 

Did you even read what I was responding to before going off about making up numbers and going on, not one but two, 4000 character rants that was nothing even remotely related to anything I said?

And again, those numbers were not made up. How are you going to say that I made them up and then continue to post them?

Jesus, this forum has has gone to crap. The reading and comprehension level on this site has gone down badly. It's as if nobody bothers to read anything more than 1 sentence anymore.

Quote

His production dropped off because he was on the tail end of his 20's and coming off of three consecutive seasons where he was ran into the ground, capped off by 450 touches in final year and 390 in each of his previous two. Hutchinson leaving was only merely coincidental. 

Right.  You said his production dropped off because he had 450 touches, 390 the two years before.  I said the numbers were made up.  You said they weren't.  I added post season.  I was not using post season before.  I did that without throwing a temper tantrum suggesting the site has gone to crap.  If you don't like the site, leave it.  Don't act like a child.  I pointed out that his contemporaries did not let high numbers of touches effect their production.  I said the numbers were made up once.  After I deduced you were including playoff numbers, I did not say that again.  Don't know why you're carrying on with it. 

So I am not allowed to counter your point?  You said his high touches caused the drop off.  I showed you 5 running backs with as many or more touches that did not drop off in spite of high numbers of touches. 

When the overall point is whether or not he should get into the Hall of Fame, if he cannot stack up against his contemporaries, he does not deserve a spot.

I'm sorry you get so upset about that.  Maybe you should stop responding if you don't like it. 

[bucsfan333]

He had some great seasons. Including his record breaking 27 TD season. But, nah.

[MacReady]

Just now, game3525 said:

And? Neither cracked the 100 td benchmark. Alexander is going to be the only one with over 100 touchdowns not in the NFL HOF.

 

If we are going to throw Alexander out for playing behind a great OL, then throw Davis (and quite a few other HOF RBs) out as well. At least in Alexander's case, the Seahawks running game fell apart when he declined, I can't say the same for the Broncos when Davis blew out his knee. Hell, Emmitt Smith became a compiler when Dallas line began to decline in the mid-90s and Marshall Faulk's saw a noticeable jump in his numbers and efficiency once he started to play for the Rams behind their great OL. You are opening up a can of worms when you start to single out certain RBs for playing behind great OL's.

Also the Hutchinson narrative is overblown. Alexander started to decline because his body began to wear out due to a heavy workload, the same thing happened to LT at the same age. 

100 touchdowns should not be enough when it was accomplished with the help of two Hall of Fame linemen.  The other 100 TD rushers are:

Faulk - 12,000 rushing yards 100 touchdowns, 7,000 receiving yards, 36 receiving touchdowns.
John Riggins - 11,000 rushing yards, 104 touchdowns, 2,000 receiving yards, 12 touchdowns.
Jim Brown - 12,000 rushing yards, 106 touchdowns.  3,000 receiving yards, 20 receiving touchdowns.
Walter Payton - 16,000 rushing yards, 110 touchdowns.  4,500 receiving yards, 15 receiving touchdowns.
Marcus Allen - 12,000 rushing yards, 123 touchdowns.  5,000 receiving yards, 21 receiving touchdowns.
Ladainian Tomlinson - 13,000 rushing yards, 145 touchdowns.  5,000 receiving yards, 17 receiving touchdowns.
Emmit Smith - 18,000 rushing yards, 164 touchdowns.  3,000 receiving yards, 11 receiving touchdowns.

Alexander - 9,400 rushing yards, 100 touchdowns.  1,500 receiving yards, 11 receiving touchdowns. 

Terrell Davis played 3 less seasons than Alexander and had 2,000 less yards.  He also had an NFL MVP, 2 Super Bowl wins and a Super Bowl MVP.  If Alexander had won a Super Bowl, he should have had a better case than Davis.  I personally don't think Davis should be in the Hall of Fame, but he has a better case than Alexander because he helped the Broncos win two Super Bowls.  In 8 playoff games, he had 1,100 rushing yards and 12 touchdowns.  In 9 games, Alexander had half as many rushing yards, 8 touchdowns and one Super Bowl loss. 

Seattle's running game fell apart?  Think that might have something to do with two Hall of Fame offensive linemen leaving?  Alexander rushed for 3.5, then 3.6 yards per carry in his final two seasons in Seattle.  Maurice Morris actually averaged 4.5 yards per carry when Alexander managed 3.6 the same year.  Julius Jones managed 4.4 yards per carry the year after Alexander averaged 3.5. 

I just went over Alexander's "heavy load."  Alexander's toughest three year stretch in touches had an average of 409 touches INCLUDING playoffs.  Ladanian Tomlinson had seasons of 404 touches, 390 touches, 392 touches, 413 touches, 451 touches, 398 touches NOT INCLUDING playoffs. 

His workload is not a valid excuse.  If you use his workload, you cannot cite his production when he had a massive workload.  Can't have it both ways. 

Faulk had 4 1,000 rushing yard seasons in Indianapolis out of five seasons there.  He had a 2,000 scrimmage yards season before he left the Colts.  Alexander had 1,800 yards rushing and still never had a 2,000 yard season. 

Emmit Smith had 10,729 rushing yards and 96 rushing touchdowns in his first six seasons.  Alexander had 9,400 rushing yards an 100 touchdowns in 9.  Smith had a single season under 1,000 yards for the Cowboys, and it was his rookie year when he wasn't the starter.  He also won two Super Bowls in his first six seasons.

I'm not opening a can of worms by addressing the OL.  All the other players you mentioned had Super Bowl wins on their resume.

You gotta have postseason success and be high above your contemporaries for at least 3-5 years to have a legitimate claim at the Hall of Fame.  Davis has both.  Alexander had two seasons in which he was the best running back, three more seasons in which he was a top 5 back, 4 seasons in which he was average and zero Super Bowl wins.  He's not good enough, he does not deserve to get into the Hall of Fame.