Shaun Alexander; HOFer?

[BleedTheClock]

On 5/12/2018 at 9:05 PM, Duluther said:

Who’d be first of these Seahawks HB in the HoF? Shaun or Marshawn?

Neither.

[Malik]

Terrell Davis is literally the 1st and only RB where people argue about playoff success. Also the MVP argument is dumb when Alexander was MVP in 2005. Terrell Davis won his Super Bowls while playing on stacked teams in a run first offense. The defense across those 2 seasons held the opposing offenses to 14.85 points in the post season.

[youngosu]

20 hours ago, game3525 said:

He is top 15 all-time in total touchdowns and everyone in the top 20 is either in or going to be in the hall of fame. And no matter how much some people want to spin it, TD getting in set a new precedent. So yeah, he probably should get in. 

This....

At the end of the day he has 100 rushing TDs and everyone with 100 TDs when he retired is in the hall of fame,  that alone should get him in regardless of any excuses people want to come up with to explain them away. That is a major benchmark that only 7 players in the history of the game (at the time he retired) share. That is hall of fame material. 

That said, I don't think he gets in anytime soon. 

[JAF-N72EX]

On 5/13/2018 at 8:50 PM, HorizontoZenith said:

Right.  You said his production dropped off because he had 450 touches, 390 the two years before.  I said the numbers were made up.  You said they weren't.  I added post season.  I was not using post season before.  I did that without throwing a temper tantrum suggesting the site has gone to crap.  If you don't like the site, leave it.  Don't act like a child.  I pointed out that his contemporaries did not let high numbers of touches effect their production.  I said the numbers were made up once.  After I deduced you were including playoff numbers, I did not say that again.  Don't know why you're carrying on with it. 

So I am not allowed to counter your point?  You said his high touches caused the drop off.  I showed you 5 running backs with as many or more touches that did not drop off in spite of high numbers of touches. 

When the overall point is whether or not he should get into the Hall of Fame, if he cannot stack up against his contemporaries, he does not deserve a spot.

I'm sorry you get so upset about that.  Maybe you should stop responding if you don't like it. 

First off, when you're right, your right. Yes I childishly over-reacted. It just gets frustrating when I see things like that happen all the time on here now---and not only myself I see with others. Anyways, moving on...

You posting the number of touches while (conveniently) leaving out the drop off in production within those years don't prove anything. It's a pretty known fact that a RB will see a decline in production after a large amount of touches. 

Alexander had over 1900 touches in only 5 seasons, consecutively. MOST RB's don't see 1900 touches in an entire career, much less maintain the production that he had. Consider, also, the short life span of a RB--age 30. He did it between the ages of 24 to 28 years old with 1200+ of those coming within the final 3 years, without any decline.  That's ALOT of body damage for a downhill runner like him. Between Alexander's; age, play style and usage....his fall was inevitable. Again, most RB's that see that amount of touches will usually see a decline in the next year and only very few can maintain it. His final "productive year" was 2005 when he was 28 years old and his expected--and waaaay long over-due, 1 year decline in 2006 put him at 29 years old(still had over 1100 yards). So, what you expect him to be that same 1,800 yards + 20TD back that he was at the age of 30? 

His drop in production had nothing to do with Hutchinson leaving Minnesota. Again, him leaving was nothing more than a coincidence. If you think for a second that Hutchinson is worth THAT much production then you believe that he is a first ballot HoFer and I can't even begin to tell you how ridiculous that is. 

And the fact that you mentioned Tiki Barber being 30 years old as a point of contention shows that you're only looking at stats and how little you actually know about any of them or their play styles. Barber was able to play at his age because he spent over half of his career on the bench and as a 3rd spell back, and even when he was getting touches, he was still only being used as situational back because of his ability to play in the open field. He didn't have the wear and tear on him that other transitional backs do(think Lesean McCoy to lesser extent). Taking hits from 300+ lineman and 250+ linebackers on a regular basis as a between the tackle runner takes more of a toll on your body than taking hits from 210 pound corners and safeties in the open field. 

 

[MacReady]

Just now, JustAnotherFan said:

Alexander had over 1900 touches in only 5 seasons, consecutively.

Tomlinson had 2050 touches between 2002 and 2006.  Those were his 2nd-6th seasons, just like the 5 consecutive seasons you cited for Alexander.  Except those Tomlinson numbers don't include playoff touches, and Tomlinson managed to have seasons of 1400 (15 TD), 1100 (11 TD) and then a combined 1900 yards and 19 touchdowns over his final three seasons.  No matter what way you want to spin it, Alexander's touches weren't insanely higher than his contemporaries, and he wasn't able to produce like them.  His touches simply is not a valid argument. 

[game3525]

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100 touchdowns should not be enough when it was accomplished with the help of two Hall of Fame linemen.  The other 100 TD rushers are:

Faulk - 12,000 rushing yards 100 touchdowns, 7,000 receiving yards, 36 receiving touchdowns.
John Riggins - 11,000 rushing yards, 104 touchdowns, 2,000 receiving yards, 12 touchdowns.
Jim Brown - 12,000 rushing yards, 106 touchdowns.  3,000 receiving yards, 20 receiving touchdowns.
Walter Payton - 16,000 rushing yards, 110 touchdowns.  4,500 receiving yards, 15 receiving touchdowns.
Marcus Allen - 12,000 rushing yards, 123 touchdowns.  5,000 receiving yards, 21 receiving touchdowns.
Ladainian Tomlinson - 13,000 rushing yards, 145 touchdowns.  5,000 receiving yards, 17 receiving touchdowns.
Emmit Smith - 18,000 rushing yards, 164 touchdowns.  3,000 receiving yards, 11 receiving touchdowns.

Alexander - 9,400 rushing yards, 100 touchdowns.  1,500 receiving yards, 11 receiving touchdowns. 

We may not like it, but it has been a benchmark for hall of famers for years. 

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Terrell Davis played 3 less seasons than Alexander and had 2,000 less yards.  He also had an NFL MVP, 2 Super Bowl wins and a Super Bowl MVP.  If Alexander had won a Super Bowl, he should have had a better case than Davis.  I personally don't think Davis should be in the Hall of Fame, but he has a better case than Alexander because he helped the Broncos win two Super Bowls.  In 8 playoff games, he had 1,100 rushing yards and 12 touchdowns.  In 9 games, Alexander had half as many rushing yards, 8 touchdowns and one Super Bowl loss. 

I don't think Davis or Alexander should be in. However, I don't find Davis case to be that much more convincing them Alexanders. Yes, Davis has the playoff success and performances. But they both have an MVP,  Davis has two more all-pros, and both were on the All-Decade team for their era. My point is, if you are going to put TD in, then you open up the door for guys like Alexander, who cleared some major benchmarks and had a longer prime. 

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Seattle's running game fell apart?  Think that might have something to do with two Hall of Fame offensive linemen leaving?  Alexander rushed for 3.5, then 3.6 yards per carry in his final two seasons in Seattle.  Maurice Morris actually averaged 4.5 yards per carry when Alexander managed 3.6 the same year.  Julius Jones managed 4.4 yards per carry the year after Alexander averaged 3.5. 

Seattle's running game went from 3rd in rushing yards to 14th. And once again, you are overblowing the loss of Hutchinson. The issue was Alexander got hurt (which you can attribute to heavy workload over 4-5 years), he broke his foot and never really recovered.

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I just went over Alexander's "heavy load."  Alexander's toughest three year stretch in touches had an average of 409 touches INCLUDING playoffs.  Ladanian Tomlinson had seasons of 404 touches, 390 touches, 392 touches, 413 touches, 451 touches, 398 touches NOT INCLUDING playoffs. 

His workload is not a valid excuse.  If you use his workload, you cannot cite his production when he had a massive workload.  Can't have it both ways. 

Alexander had over 1600 carries in 5 year span, that is a ton. To make matters worse, Alexander had 370 carries his final productive year. Outside of LT in 2002, most RBs see a massive drop off in production or end up getting injured after that kind of workload. That is what happened to Ricky Williams in 2003, Larry Johnson in 2007, Michael Turner in 2009, Demarco Murray in 2015. The human body just isn't built to take that kind of workload. 

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Faulk had 4 1,000 rushing yard seasons in Indianapolis out of five seasons there.  He had a 2,000 scrimmage yards season before he left the Colts.  Alexander had 1,800 yards rushing and still never had a 2,000 yard season. 

Emmit Smith had 10,729 rushing yards and 96 rushing touchdowns in his first six seasons.  Alexander had 9,400 rushing yards an 100 touchdowns in 9.  Smith had a single season under 1,000 yards for the Cowboys, and it was his rookie year when he wasn't the starter.  He also won two Super Bowls in his first six seasons.

I'm not opening a can of worms by addressing the OL.  All the other players you mentioned had Super Bowl wins on their resume.

You are opening a can of warms, because both of those guys saw either their production go down as their talented offensive lines aged (Emmitt) or a massive increase in efficiency behind a great offensive line (Faulk) when they switched teams. After 1995, Emmitt Smith never topped anything higher then 4.2 YPC, and he was still relatively in his prime from 1996-1997. Faulk never topped anything higher then 4.1 in Indy, but he jumps to 5.5, 5.4, and 5.3 once he gets to the Rams. 

This is what I mean when I said you are opening up a can of worms by claiming Alexander is a product of his surroundings. A lot of backs played behind great offensive lines and he isn't the first, or will be the last, to do so. 

[JAF-N72EX]

8 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Tomlinson had 2050 touches between 2002 and 2006.  Those were his 2nd-6th seasons, just like the 5 consecutive seasons you cited for Alexander.  Except those Tomlinson numbers don't include playoff touches, and Tomlinson managed to have seasons of 1400 (15 TD), 1100 (11 TD) and then a combined 1900 yards and 19 touchdowns over his final three seasons.  No matter what way you want to spin it, Alexander's touches weren't insanely higher than his contemporaries, and he wasn't able to produce like them.  His touches simply is not a valid argument. 

Yeah, Tomlinson is one of the very few. I mentioned that. Anyone else? Because I can guarantee that you won't find many. 

[minutemancl]

I'd put Tiki in the hall before I put Shaun Alexander. I don't think either should be in. 

[BullsandBroncos]

22 hours ago, Malik said:

Terrell Davis is literally the 1st and only RB where people argue about playoff success. Also the MVP argument is dumb when Alexander was MVP in 2005. Terrell Davis won his Super Bowls while playing on stacked teams in a run first offense. The defense across those 2 seasons held the opposing offenses to 14.85 points in the post season.

Terrell Davis was the team in both Super Bowl Runs and the defense wasn't anything to write home about albeit not bad by any means. Terrell Davis is in the HOF for carrying Denver to 2 super bowls and rushing for 2000 yards in a season. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

If Shaun Alexander carried Seattle over the Steelers in 2005/2006, I'd be saying something similar. It's all about big stage performances more than even stats. Look at Lynn Swann.

[Malik]

4 minutes ago, BullsandBroncos said:

Terrell Davis was the team in both Super Bowl Runs and the defense wasn't anything to write home about albeit not bad by any means. Terrell Davis is in the HOF for carrying Denver to 2 super bowls and rushing for 2000 yards in a season. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

If Shaun Alexander carried Seattle over the Steelers in 2005/2006, I'd be saying something similar. It's all about big stage performances more than even stats. Look at Lynn Swann.

post season is literally criteria that is never used for runningbacks. Never. Earl Campbell had 1 good post season game, but no one is ever going to bring that up because it is never a talking point regarding the greatness of rbs.

[BullsandBroncos]

Just now, Malik said:

post season is literally criteria that is never used for runningbacks. Never. Earl Campbell had 1 good post season game, but no one is ever going to bring that up because it is never a talking point regarding the greatness of rbs.

Not talking about running backs, just players as a whole.

[66PinG]

On 5/13/2018 at 3:05 AM, Duluther said:

Who’d be first of these Seahawks HB in the HoF? Shaun or Marshawn?

Neither. Both are great backs, but IMO not worthy of the HOF. 

[BroncoBruin]

1 hour ago, Malik said:

post season is literally criteria that is never used for runningbacks. Never. Earl Campbell had 1 good post season game, but no one is ever going to bring that up because it is never a talking point regarding the greatness of rbs.

I guess it's crazy to think success in the most important games of the year would be viewed in a positive light. 

Probably worth considering that RBs' postseason numbers are never used in arguments outside of TD because his production is so far and away better than any other RB in the history of the playoffs. His production in the biggest games is Ruth-ian in comparison to other Hall of Fame backs. You're actually making a pro-TD argument and you don't even realize it. 

[Malik]

31 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

I guess it's crazy to think success in the most important games of the year would be viewed in a positive light. 

Probably worth considering that RBs' postseason numbers are never used in arguments outside of TD because his production is so far and away better than any other RB in the history of the playoffs. His production in the biggest games is Ruth-ian in comparison to other Hall of Fame backs. You're actually making a pro-TD argument and you don't even realize it. 

Naw it's just situational. Plenty of all-time great RBs never get to be on playoff caliber teams and even those that do only get 10 or so carries in their playoff games. Franco Harris is #2 in post season yards. No one is putting him in their top 20 outside of Pittsburgh. Same for Tony Dorsett and Marcus Allen.

[66PinG]

12 minutes ago, Malik said:

 

I actually put all three of them in my top 15...