Jon Bostic

[3rivers]

6 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

Because the game is so situational/substitutions/match-ups, we could pick our times for this. Obviously Dirty Red would not be ideal in the Nickel or Dime. However, there are some occasions in early downs that he could help the running game.  Our OLB's need to improve setting the edge as well.  If you take away the ability to get wide, your ILB's should be gobbling up tacklers.  Watt and Bud should improve in this area this year.

Some of the same things were said about Sean Lee being too small and slow if I recall. Many of us still liked him and were pissed the Steelers passed on him.  Matakevich is a 7th rounder, which means that it will take time for him to develop.  His positives are that he is intelligent and tough.  His flaws are that he does not have straight line speed, "perfect NFL quickness" and needs to get stronger.  This is year three and I sincerely believe the light bulb will come on this year.  How bright it shines will be determined by his play.  The same things said about Dirty Red were said about his current ILB Coach Jerry Olsavsky.  Jerry O was a decent pro despite having similar characteristics as Dirty Red (except Jerry O's supporting cast was stronger).

I may be in the minority here, but I would prefer him over Vince Williams.  Here's why:

Dirty Red is an ace on special teams

Dirty Red knows the defense and can call plays better than Vince Williams

While I think Vince is currently a better ILB than Dirty Red, I think Vince has also hit his ceiling and Red's ceiling may be slightly higher.

Vince Willams did an outstanding job blitzing and generating pass rush up the middle. His ability to time the blitz was the best that I had seen since the days of James Potsey Farrior and Larry Foote.  He will provide a decent thump on you at times as well.

Great blitzing aside, I was very disappointed overall in what I saw from Vince last year. He was average to below average in other areas in my opinion.

I think Dirty Red is ready to move past Vince this year. We will see.

Red is ace on ST and that goes quite a ways with a team that has a history od ST problems.  My only concern with Red starting is if he has the speed required.  It might boil down to the trade offs with Red, and if he makes the team I hope he does well. I liked how VW has played too but it's not like we have Foote or Farrior and it has been a problem.  If we get a NT that can occupy, this could help the ILB's, because last I checked  the roster  , #98  Casey Hampton wasn't on there either. 

[Steeler Hitman]

36 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

Red is ace on ST and that goes quite a ways with a team that has a history of ST problems.  My only concern with Red starting is if he has the speed required.  It might boil down to the trade offs with Red, and if he makes the team I hope he does well.

I completely agree with everything that you said here.

I liked how VW has played too but it's not like we have Foote or Farrior and it has been a problem.

Again, I expected more of Vince. Maybe I overvalued his abilities or I got spoiled from the Steelers always having a LB in the pipeline to replace whoever got old or left. I just didn't see that level with Vince Williams especially after they extended his contract.

 If we get a NT that can occupy, this could help the ILB's, because last I checked  the roster  , #98  Casey Hampton wasn't on there either. 

We have had the NG conversation on here many times.  We have needed one since Big Snack left us.  Hopefully Frazier will surprise. He is good at run stuffing and maybe can take this role from Hargraves and allow him to play DT in the Nickel and Dime. I don't have any confidence in Mt. McCullers.

I thought that he would have been a force with his size and strength by now.

[3rivers]

On 2018-05-24 at 9:13 AM, Steeler Hitman said:

We have had the NG conversation on here many times.  We have needed one since Big Snack left us.  Hopefully Frazier will surprise. He is good at run stuffing and maybe can take this role from Hargraves and allow him to play DT in the Nickel and Dime. I don't have any confidence in Mt. McCullers.

I thought that he would have been a force with his size and strength by now.

agree, he got paid for nothing last year, so why will it happen again? It won't unless others get injured and even then it might not help DMC secure a roster spot if others deserve it more. 

[Alex]

Essentially we have three solid linebackers with different skillsets. 

Vince Williams- Thumper who can pass-rush really well.

Tyler Matakevich- Intelligent, best tackler, and cerebral Mike who can also help with communication

Jon Bostic- best all-around inside linebacker we got.

Problem?

Neither of them can really compliment each other well. The best pair, my opinion right now is Tyler and Jon. We have Watts and Dupree and other defensive linemen to do the pass rushing, let them do their jobs. Vince Williams is really good at what he is at; that being said, he can be very expendable solely based on the scheme, just like how Kendricks was from the Eagles.

We all can agree easily; we DO want to upgrade the inside linebacker, but I don't see that as an option unless we trade for an all-star (pro bowler) inside linebacker and who's available? Are we even willing to lose somebody for that player? Would it suddenly improve our defense? We boosted our safety position with the draft and free agency, which likely will see more playing time. 

Point being... You want a player like Bostic sees more playing time, not the other two. Here's why: 

Running downs- You still need somebody big and athletic enough to play versatile concepts of spill and cage. Can't just rotate a linebacker in and out for certain situations, you need the consistency.

Passing downs- You want somebody who you can mask in the coverage and be asked to do a variety of things. Bostics can do many things, maybe just decent or good at few things but he can do it, not great- we got to tame our expectation.

Communication- It was problematic, we got Bostic in for this purpose and if Bostic can make the call he usually would position himself better and that's something we need NOW.

Position value- we got him for dirt cheap. It wasn't his fault he played on a bunch of worst defenses in past few years and when he played for the Patriots (as some would point out he didn't get any playing time and was traded for basically free) he was playing behind this group: Hightower, Collins, Mayo, and McCellin. 
https://www.patspulpit.com/2016/5/10/11648098/heres-why-the-patriots-gave-lb-jon-bostic-away-to-the-lions-pretty

Usually, I don't like giving players "benefit of the doubt" when they bounce from team to team, however, with further researching, Bostic seems to be a guy with really bad luck. 

His transaction history:

1). Chicago Bears drafted him in 2013, 2nd round.

Jon Bostic led in tackles, got hurt.

The Bears praised him for being a good linebacker, however, with a change of scheme they decided to trade him.

2). Patriots traded for Jon Bostic

Bostic got buried on the depth chart.

Bill Belichick praised him for his versatility, traded him anyway.

3). Lions receive Jon Bostic in a trade

Bostic got hurt in the Lions-Steelers scrimmage game, got IR'd, became an unrestricted free agent.

Lions drafted Jarrad Davis, decided to let Bostic walk.

4). Indianipolis Colts signed him as a free agent

Bostic led in tackles, got hurt by end of the season.

Ballard and the Colts FO praised Bostic, let him walk anyway and draft Darius Leonard.

5). Jon Bostic signs with the Steelers.

As you can see, we shouldn't be arguing about the talents of Bostic. We should be only alarmed by his injury history. 

[jebrick]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

Tyler Matakevich- Intelligent, best tackler, and cerebral Mike who can also help with communication

And slow.  Perhaps the slowest of the ILB.

[Alex]

22 minutes ago, jebrick said:

And slow.  Perhaps the slowest of the ILB.

One of the slowest who also is our best tackler versus... Somebody athletic who is unreliable in tackling.

Take your poison. 

[Steeler Hitman]

9 hours ago, Alex said:

Essentially we have three solid linebackers with different skillsets. 

Yep!!!

Vince Williams- Thumper who can pass-rush really well.

Tyler Matakevich- Intelligent, best tackler, and cerebral Mike who can also help with communication

Jon Bostic- best all-around inside linebacker we got.

Problem?

Neither of them can really compliment each other well. The best pair, my opinion right now is Tyler and Jon. We have Watts and Dupree and other defensive linemen to do the pass rushing, let them do their jobs. Vince Williams is really good at what he is at; that being said, he can be very expendable solely based on the scheme, just like how Kendricks was from the Eagles.

I think that some of us are disappointed that Vince did not go to the next level like many of our reserves in the wings from the past.  Maybe I overvalued Vince's ability.  To his credit, he can still improve in some areas.

We all can agree easily; we DO want to upgrade the inside linebacker, but I don't see that as an option unless we trade for an all-star (pro bowler) inside linebacker and who's available? Are we even willing to lose somebody for that player? Would it suddenly improve our defense? We boosted our safety position with the draft and free agency, which likely will see more playing time. 

If the money can be negotiated, I still think Kendrycks would be a great fit.  You never know who will be a training camp surprise cut like Haden was. We may get lucky there as well.

Point being... You want a player like Bostic sees more playing time, not the other two. Here's why: 

Running downs- You still need somebody big and athletic enough to play versatile concepts of spill and cage. Can't just rotate a linebacker in and out for certain situations, you need the consistency.

Passing downs- You want somebody who you can mask in the coverage and be asked to do a variety of things. Bostics can do many things, maybe just decent or good at few things but he can do it, not great- we got to tame our expectation.

Communication- It was problematic, we got Bostic in for this purpose and if Bostic can make the call he usually would position himself better and that's something we need NOW.

That is where I was disappointed in Vince. I was very surprised that he didn't know the scheme better and some of his reads and pursuit angles were horrible at times. I wasn't expecting him to be a young Timmons, but I thought he would hve been more ready to take on a starting role.

Position value- we got him for dirt cheap. It wasn't his fault he played on a bunch of worst defenses in past few years and when he played for the Patriots (as some would point out he didn't get any playing time and was traded for basically free) he was playing behind this group: Hightower, Collins, Mayo, and McCellin. 
https://www.patspulpit.com/2016/5/10/11648098/heres-why-the-patriots-gave-lb-jon-bostic-away-to-the-lions-pretty

Usually, I don't like giving players "benefit of the doubt" when they bounce from team to team, however, with further researching, Bostic seems to be a guy with really bad luck. 

His transaction history:

1). Chicago Bears drafted him in 2013, 2nd round.

Jon Bostic led in tackles, got hurt.

The Bears praised him for being a good linebacker, however, with a change of scheme they decided to trade him.

2). Patriots traded for Jon Bostic

Bostic got buried on the depth chart.

Bill Belichick praised him for his versatility, traded him anyway.

3). Lions receive Jon Bostic in a trade

Bostic got hurt in the Lions-Steelers scrimmage game, got IR'd, became an unrestricted free agent.

Lions drafted Jarrad Davis, decided to let Bostic walk.

4). Indianipolis Colts signed him as a free agent

Bostic led in tackles, got hurt by end of the season.

Ballard and the Colts FO praised Bostic, let him walk anyway and draft Darius Leonard.

5). Jon Bostic signs with the Steelers.

As you can see, we shouldn't be arguing about the talents of Bostic. We should be only alarmed by his injury history. 

Very solid and detailed post my friend. Hopefully five is a charm. I liked him coming out of college and I think he fits our scheme well. We will see. I do have fairly high expectations of him.

[jebrick]

15 hours ago, Alex said:

One of the slowest who also is our best tackler versus... Somebody athletic who is unreliable in tackling.

Take your poison. 

He misses a lot of tackles because he is too slow to get there.  His speed limits him to goal line or obvious running plays when he can move down hill.  Him and Vince on the field is a call to run a pass play.

I do not doubt that he is football smart and can make the correct reads.  He is just a step slow for the NFL and it shows on every play.  That is why he is a decent situational player and not a starter.

[Armsteeld2]

I laugh out way too loud while reading Matakevich is a cerebral player who lacks the physical ability ?‍♂️Every slow player isn’t cerebral.  Mata is a solid ST who looked overwhelmed in the small sample I’ve seen so far.  

Williams is an excellent blitzer when schemed to get open.  He got there, which is a plus, but we were exotic and blitz heavy (which was often disguised perfectly and a four man rush).

[Alex]

17 hours ago, Armsteeld2 said:

I laugh out way too loud while reading Matakevich is a cerebral player who lacks the physical ability ?‍♂️Every slow player isn’t cerebral.  Mata is a solid ST who looked overwhelmed in the small sample I’ve seen so far.  

Williams is an excellent blitzer when schemed to get open.  He got there, which is a plus, but we were exotic and blitz heavy (which was often disguised perfectly and a four man rush).

3

Did you just contradict yourself, Armsteeld2?

Matakevich may not be fast as we would like, but he's not that slow. What Tyler has to offer is the intelligence in phases where he's a communicator and he not only can position players in right spots to make the players but so he would be the last man of the frontier when a ball-carrier gets out. Tyler and Vince Williams both are DIFFERENT kinds of player.

Referring to your second comment on Williams; exactly, when the schemed to get open. When we lost Shazier, his value as pass rusher went down because teams didn't have to worry about Shazier anymore. On this defense without a playmaker like Shazier, do you truly think Vince Williams still has the same value? I love Williams, this isn't about whether I like him or not. It's always about what the best 11-men can provide on the defense, simultaneously based on the chemistry and communication. Bostic and Tyler both compliment each other better than Vince with any other inside linebackers. 

However... I could see Vince Williams being paired up with either Burnett or Edmunds. 

It's a moot to argue about the starting lineup as we will see a lot of rotations between ILBs and SS anyway.

[3rivers]

with the concerns at ILB, will we be susceptible  to short passes and the running game as much as (or close ) last season int he last half? I would think so, and this is a problem that can only be overcome by outscoring the opposition.

[43M]

Bottom line is that the current ILB corps is still sub par.   None of these guys are bonafide starters.   They are all situational players/role players/depth players.   There is nothing wrong with that in general and they are nice players to have in general, but you dont want them starting,  

Also, judging any defender based on tackles is an extremely poor way to analyze how good they are.    Injuries arent the only reason he is on his 4th team in his short career....he is just a very expendable and replaceable player, even when healthy.

[August4th]

miss the days when we had strong LB units

[3rivers]

2 hours ago, August4th said:

miss the days when we had strong LB units

Having a top D was nice and I sometimes can't stand watching this D but it had it's moments last season . In todays game, I am still waiting to see our Elite Offence win for us. So far nothing.

[Steeler Hitman]

On 5/27/2018 at 7:23 PM, August4th said:

miss the days when we had strong LB units

When you draft talent based on the 3 - 4 base, your LB'ers have to be very good.

Since the days of a younger Debo,  a young Woodley, and a younger Timmons, we have lacked having that elite CORP of LB'ers.