Jump to content
AlexGreen#20

Jimmy Graham and Tight End Alignment

Recommended Posts

I keep seeing people talking about how it's going to be great that we're going to add this new wrinkle to our offense that Jimmy Graham is going to be playing outside and it's going to revolutionize how our offense works, or that by having a TE who can play on the outside, it's going to lessen the impact of starting Geronimo Allison. I've been pointing out until I'm blue in the face that's not the case, but here's the pictures for those that need it.

This is every offensive play in the first quarter of the Seattle game:

https://imgur.com/iZzoHg5

First offensive play of the season, Bennett is lined up as a Wing Back here. For the sake of this discussion I'll call this aligned next to the tackle.

https://imgur.com/HUBl5Ew

Second play of the season, Bennett is lined up in the slot.

https://imgur.com/FrOgEc5

Third play of the season, Bennett is lined up in the slot.

https://imgur.com/c5Tk0dO

Fourth play of the season, Bennett is lined up next to the tackle in a 3 point stance.

https://imgur.com/FHPcafQ

Fifth play of the season, Bennett is lined up in the slot.

https://imgur.com/esCEkb8

Sixth play of the season, FB is in the game.

https://imgur.com/4CxVbyX

Seventh play of the season, Bennett is lined up on the boundary.

https://imgur.com/94UttHp

Eighth play of the season, Rodgers is lined up next to Bakhtiari

https://imgur.com/1oQFElK

Ninth play of the season, Kendricks and Bennett are lined up on the line.

https://imgur.com/3UoE8zD

Tenth play of the season, Bennett is in the slot.

https://imgur.com/Ek6mHWM

Eleventh play of the season, Bennett and Kendricks are lined up on the line.

https://imgur.com/yFazXuQ

Twelfth play of the season, Bennett is on the line.

https://imgur.com/a/YnnzDeh

Thirteenth play of the season, Bennett is on the boundary.

https://imgur.com/VyhlduE

Fourteenth play of the season, Bennett and Kendricks are on the line

https://imgur.com/5N7USfG

Fifteenth play of the season, Kendricks and Rodgers are on the line.

https://imgur.com/a/YnnzDeh

Sixteenth play of the season, Bennett is lined up on the line.

https://imgur.com/a/YnnzDeh

Seventeenth play of the season, Kendricks and Rodgers are on the line.

https://imgur.com/a/YnnzDeh

Eighteenth play of the season, FB is in the game.

https://imgur.com/a/YnnzDeh

Nineteenth play of the season, Bennett is in the slot.

++++

8/17 snaps where the TE is either in the slot or the boundary.

Breaking down the TE reps:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep. If Graham is a WR because he lines up outside a significant portion of the time, than so is pretty much every TE we've had since at least Finley.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm failing to see the point here? You're arguing that we aren't going to see Graham out wide and then go on to show 8/17 plays where Bennett is out wide?

Also using an Edgar Bennett/Martellus Bennett offense to tell us how the Joe Philbin/Jimmy Graham offense will go is not sound logic to me. Better off showing us how Philbin used Finley if you want to say that the people saying the ability to put Lewis inline and Graham outside at WR 2 isn't going to lead to Allison (or any #2 outside WR) being at best #4 in team targets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having a decent TE that plays more than half a season would kind of "revolutionize" our offense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

2/17 on the boundary. 6/17 in the slot. 1 in "backfield." 8/17 inline. 14/17 with 3+ WR on the field in addition to the TE anyway. Face the facts: Graham won't push Cobb to the slot often from what those numbers say.

14f06462d09c9ad6f3b1ade3629b80ff972ebfdb

Edited by HyponGrey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Bennett already did this last year. Point taken. But I think the larger point is that Graham may still be an effective receiver, which Bennett was not. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

I'm failing to see the point here? You're arguing that we aren't going to see Graham out wide and then go on to show 8/17 plays where Bennett is out wide?

Also using an Edgar Bennett/Martellus Bennett offense to tell us how the Joe Philbin/Jimmy Graham offense will go is not sound logic to me. Better off showing us how Philbin used Finley if you want to say that the people saying the ability to put Lewis inline and Graham outside at WR 2 isn't going to lead to Allison (or any #2 outside WR) being at best #4 in team targets.

I'm arguing that anyone who is trying to argue that having Geronimo Allison at WR is just fine because Graham is going to be taking snaps split out is crazy. You can argue that having Geronimo Allison at WR is fine because we have Aaron Rodgers, but that's not the argument that seems to be being made.

It's a Mike McCarthy/Aaron Rodgers offense. So long as those two are running the show, we're probably not going to run many snaps with dead targets or guys who can't at least threaten big plays. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

I'm failing to see the point here? You're arguing that we aren't going to see Graham out wide and then go on to show 8/17 plays where Bennett is out wide?

I agree. I think our WR/TE mix of talent will give us alot of opportunities to mix and match formations and plays. Which I think is a good thing.

What exactly they're gonna do - dont know/dont care frankly. With AR at the helm, we'll be more than capably manned across the board - and we've got the youngsters providing "upward incentive & pressure" - which is a good thing.

I'm not adverse to giving a rookie WR playing time if they show the chops to run routes/catch passes and the innate personal skills to beat their defender.

Works just fine for me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I'm arguing that anyone who is trying to argue that having Geronimo Allison at WR is just fine because Graham is going to be taking snaps split out is crazy. You can argue that having Geronimo Allison at WR is fine because we have Aaron Rodgers, but that's not the argument that seems to be being made.

It's a Mike McCarthy/Aaron Rodgers offense. So long as those two are running the show, we're probably not going to run many snaps with dead targets or guys who can't at least threaten big plays. 

So are you trying to say Graham isn't going to play outside? I still don't get it. Nor do I come close to agreeing with your points you're using to prove this argument. Bennett played outside, we signed a TE this year that petitioned the NFL to be considered a WR when franchise tagged because he barely played inline in NO. Comparing what we did with Bennett is irrelevant as you're talking about a mid 4.8 guy who was a box out receiver and plus blocker. As I said earlier, we have a new OC and a TE much more like the skillset we saw with Finley. Looking at what the Bennett duo at OC/TE did last year is like showing cutups of Dom's D and saying "this is how Pettine is going to play." Mac has stated multiple times now that they threw out most of the playbook and have tried to go back to their roots. We signed a quintessential inline TE instead of a vet and chose to cut a WR that could play outside and slot in favor of a slot only WR. All signs from Gute and Mac show Graham is going to be split out wide a bunch. I'm sure Allison is going to see snaps this year, but like I've said ever since the Graham signing, with no big injuries 4th in targets is the best he can hope for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

So are you trying to say Graham isn't going to play outside? I still don't get it. Nor do I come close to agreeing with your points you're using to prove this argument. Bennett played outside, we signed a TE this year that petitioned the NFL to be considered a WR when franchise tagged because he barely played inline in NO. Comparing what we did with Bennett is irrelevant as you're talking about a mid 4.8 guy who was a box out receiver and plus blocker. As I said earlier, we have a new OC and a TE much more like the skillset we saw with Finley. Looking at what the Bennett duo at OC/TE did last year is like showing cutups of Dom's D and saying "this is how Pettine is going to play." Mac has stated multiple times now that they threw out most of the playbook and have tried to go back to their roots. We signed a quintessential inline TE instead of a vet and chose to cut a WR that could play outside and slot in favor of a slot only WR. All signs from Gute and Mac show Graham is going to be split out wide a bunch. I'm sure Allison is going to see snaps this year, but like I've said ever since the Graham signing, with no big injuries 4th in targets is the best he can hope for.

I'm not saying Graham isn't going to be split out a bunch. I'm saying the opposite. Graham is going to be split out a ton. We agree on that point.

I'm saying the argument that others are making, that our 3rd WR isn't going to matter much because we have Jimmy Graham, is nonsensical. You play a 3rd WR AND Jimmy Graham split out. 

McCarthy can say what he wants to regarding the playbook, but it's still the same author and Rodgers is still the same QB. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I'm saying the argument that others are making, that our 3rd WR isn't going to matter much because we have Jimmy Graham, is nonsensical. You play a 3rd WR AND Jimmy Graham split out. 

Let's say we go 4 wide with one of those being Jimmy Graham.  I'm assuming Cobb and Graham are your "slot" WRs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Let's say we go 4 wide with one of those being Jimmy Graham.  I'm assuming Cobb and Graham are your "slot" WRs?

Typically if your in the 2x2 that would be the case. 

Teams are running a bunch of the 3x1 as well. Run it with Cobb and Graham as the slots on the strong side or Graham isolated on the weak side. Both are strong options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I'm not saying Graham isn't going to be split out a bunch. I'm saying the opposite. Graham is going to be split out a ton. We agree on that point.

I'm saying the argument that others are making, that our 3rd WR isn't going to matter much because we have Jimmy Graham, is nonsensical. You play a 3rd WR AND Jimmy Graham split out. 

McCarthy can say what he wants to regarding the playbook, but it's still the same author and Rodgers is still the same QB. 

I'd agree until we signed Lewis, him inline with the big 3 split out can be dynamic from both a run and pass set. They have some good vet WRs on the market and they chose Lewis instead. They want the balance having him and Graham on the field will present. I'd argue your percentages for having Graham and Lewis on the field sans Allison are going to be close to Graham and Allison sans Lewis/Kendricks. This move signaled to me they're going to spend less time forcing Jimmy to be what he's not, Seattle took one of the most dynamic playmakers in the NFL and forced him into a balanced role. Mac isn't making that same mistake, he's going to treat him like Payton did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

I'd agree until we signed Lewis, him inline with the big 3 split out can be dynamic from both a run and pass set. They have some good vet WRs on the market and they chose Lewis instead. They want the balance having him and Graham on the field will present. I'd argue your percentages for having Graham and Lewis on the field sans Allison are going to be close to Graham and Allison sans Lewis/Kendricks. This move signaled to me they're going to spend less time forcing Jimmy to be what he's not, Seattle took one of the most dynamic playmakers in the NFL and forced him into a balanced role. Mac isn't making that same mistake, he's going to treat him like Payton did.

I definitely would agree with this sentiment.  I mean, what percentage of snaps did we not have a TE lined up next to a tackle?  Probably not very often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

My question would be is there a difference in the coverage Graham sees if you split him wide. Does he then get a corner vs a safety or LB ? Obviously we want the most favorable matchup available

Edited by cannondale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×