Jimmy Graham and Tight End Alignment

[AlexGreen#20]

6 minutes ago, cannondale said:

My question would be is there a difference in the coverage Graham sees if you split him wide. Does he then get a corner vs a safety or LB ? Obviously we want the most favorable matchup available

Depends on how the defense chooses to play it. Usually it causes some sort of problem.

[cannondale]

2 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Depends on how the defense chooses to play it. Usually it causes some sort of problem.

Graham would cause issues against a CB as well, but unless the stats say differently, I would rather have him matched up against a safety or LB inside vs a CB on the outside

[AlexGreen#20]

20 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

I'd agree until we signed Lewis, him inline with the big 3 split out can be dynamic from both a run and pass set. They have some good vet WRs on the market and they chose Lewis instead. They want the balance having him and Graham on the field will present. I'd argue your percentages for having Graham and Lewis on the field sans Allison are going to be close to Graham and Allison sans Lewis/Kendricks. This move signaled to me they're going to spend less time forcing Jimmy to be what he's not, Seattle took one of the most dynamic playmakers in the NFL and forced him into a balanced role. Mac isn't making that same mistake, he's going to treat him like Payton did.

I'm not sure I agree with the assumption that Lewis is going to be anything more than a role player to spell Graham and do situational work.

If he was going to be a building block, I think you bring that guy, not necessarily Lewis, on earlier.

 

I think this was just a pure value signing and having some cap left

 

[AlexGreen#20]

4 minutes ago, cannondale said:

Graham would cause issues against a CB as well, but unless the stats say differently, I would rather have him matched up against a safety or LB inside vs a CB on the outside

What about the WR that consequently gets lined up on the LB/S that would traditionally be covering the TE were he playing inside?

[cannondale]

7 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

What about the WR that consequently gets lined up on the LB/S that would traditionally be covering the TE were he playing inside?

I guess it depends on how many receivers we show vs what defense they want to play. It goes to the point that having Graham actually replacing a wide receiver may not be the best advantage

[AlexGreen#20]

2 minutes ago, cannondale said:

I guess it depends on how many receivers we show vs what defense they want to play.

Yep, that's why the 3x1 with a legitimate threat at TE is so tough to defend. 

Keep the CB out on that side and risk getting torched when your S/LB is stuck on a WR.

Run the LB/S out there and you're stuck with that 1v1 match up.

Bring the second safety over the top of the TE and you're stuck with a trips side with no deep support. 

The 3x1 just bends defenses into making uncomfortable choices.

[cannondale]

And even with all of that being said, I think the further out Graham plays the less advantage we have. In between the hashes is the best scenario

[Packerraymond]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I'm not sure I agree with the assumption that Lewis is going to be anything more than a role player to spell Graham and do situational work.

If he was going to be a building block, I think you bring that guy, not necessarily Lewis, on earlier.

 

I think this was just a pure value signing and having some cap left

 

I think they looked at the offense post draft and said "we can have a Dez/Maclin type outside and play Graham as a traditional TE, or play Graham like he was used in NO and bring in a guy that can play inline and block. You don't sign the best blocking TE in the NFL and play him sparingly IMO, it paints a clear picture of what they view Graham as. Lewis will not be splitting out wide and spelling Jimmy, that will be Kendricks. Lewis is here to block, be a redzone target and a PA threat from the box.

[ThatJerkDave]

5 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I'm arguing that anyone who is trying to argue that having Geronimo Allison at WR is just fine because Graham is going to be taking snaps split out is crazy. You can argue that having Geronimo Allison at WR is fine because we have Aaron Rodgers, but that's not the argument that seems to be being made.

It's a Mike McCarthy/Aaron Rodgers offense. So long as those two are running the show, we're probably not going to run many snaps with dead targets or guys who can't at least threaten big plays. 

Having Geronimo Allison at WR is fine because he is Geronimo Allison.  

[AlexGreen#20]

36 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

I think they looked at the offense post draft and said "we can have a Dez/Maclin type outside and play Graham as a traditional TE, or play Graham like he was used in NO and bring in a guy that can play inline and block. You don't sign the best blocking TE in the NFL and play him sparingly IMO, it paints a clear picture of what they view Graham as. Lewis will not be splitting out wide and spelling Jimmy, that will be Kendricks. Lewis is here to block, be a redzone target and a PA threat from the box.

Define "Sparingly"?

If Graham is healthy, I bet there's a good chance Lewis sees sub 40 percent of snaps.

I don't even think we're disagreeing all that much. Lewis will be the second tight end in standard sets and a guy brought in for short yardage and 20s play.

If you're arguing that we're going to go back to the days of playing 12 personnel on 50 percent of snaps, I think you're out of your mind.

[Packerraymond]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Define "Sparingly"?

If Graham is healthy, I bet there's a good chance Lewis sees sub 40 percent of snaps.

I don't even think we're disagreeing all that much. Lewis will be the second tight end in standard sets and a guy brought in for short yardage and 20s play.

If you're arguing that we're going to go back to the days of playing 12 personnel on 50 percent of snaps, I think you're out of your mind.

Depends if you define Graham as a TE when he's on the field out wide with Lewis/Kendricks inline I guess. We'll run 11 personnel with two "TEs" on the field. I think Graham will be treated more like he's our #2 WR than our #1 TE this year.

[skibrett15]

19 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Depends if you define Graham as a TE when he's on the field out wide with Lewis/Kendricks inline I guess. We'll run 11 personnel with two "TEs" on the field. I think Graham will be treated more like he's our #2 WR than our #1 TE this year.

Nah.

11 personnel has one "TE"

Graham is the same as finley in this offense.  Finley was never used like other WRs.  He never ran the backside post.  He never ran clear out go routes on the outside in trips. 

 

We will go 3x1 with Graham isolated.  It's the adam gase innovation that no one has really figured out how to defend, even after 4 years of it.  When they trot a really good run defending LB out there with him and provide some help, we'll run the ball against a very light box.

We will use Graham as the slot guy in 12 and run that flat/slants pattern into bolivian again, trusting Graham to break a tackle vs a CB and a run away from a LB.

 

[HyponGrey]

7 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

So are you trying to say Graham isn't going to play outside? I still don't get it. Nor do I come close to agreeing with your points you're using to prove this argument. Bennett played outside, we signed a TE this year that petitioned the NFL to be considered a WR when franchise tagged because he barely played inline in NO.

Based on his snaps in the slot, not as a boundary WR. And you'll remember that the NFL determined that he took more snaps as an TE than as a WR. He's going to run out of the slot on AT LEAST 40% of his plays and won't take more than 10% on the outside. Even in 2 TE sets, he'll be the slot with Cobb on the outside.

[Packerraymond]

15 hours ago, HyponGrey said:

Based on his snaps in the slot, not as a boundary WR. And you'll remember that the NFL determined that he took more snaps as an TE than as a WR. He's going to run out of the slot on AT LEAST 40% of his plays and won't take more than 10% on the outside. Even in 2 TE sets, he'll be the slot with Cobb on the outside.

Sorry I just can't believe that to be true the way Gute constructed the roster. If we play Graham that much in the slot vs outside and chose to keep Cobb over Nelson that's flat out poor GM work. Cobb is a downright bad outside WR.

[packfanfb]

45 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Sorry I just can't believe that to be true the way Gute constructed the roster. If we play Graham that much in the slot vs outside and chose to keep Cobb over Nelson that's flat out poor GM work. Cobb is a downright bad outside WR.

Sorry but if failing to get an actual WR after cutting Jordy means we have to live with Adams-Cobb-Lewis-Graham as our 11 personnel on a consistent basis, that's already poor GM work.

You can certainly run that set once in a while and it opens up the running game, but to be a consistent passing attack, ideally you want your 11 personnel to be Adams-Cobb-Graham-WR. We dont currently have that 4th guy IMO.