Is Larry Fitzgerald Still A Top 12 WR Talent Wise?

[NFLExpert49]

13 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

@NFLExpert49

Since you are the nfl expert and the rest of us are just poor shlubs who dont know the game at all, im sure you know all this, so we'll just say im educating all the ones who dont.  Cod speed is only a very small part of route running.  First thing i coach about running routes is eye discipline.  The eyes naturally want to go to where the cut is on the route.  A good cb will spot that and use it.  You have to keep your eyes up and down field.  Second is the stem.  Do all of the routes look the same before the break.  Does a 9 look the same as a 7 or a 3 or a 1?  Where is the cb leverage.  If im running a 2 for example, its imperative that i dont let the cb cross my face.  Where is the safety? My breaks have to adjust for these factors.  I dont necessarily want to run full speed every time.  If its a wc timing route its much more important im in the exact spot im supposed to be when the qb is ready to release the ball than it is to be full speed.  There is a reason why the best route runners the league has seen are not all the short quick guys but are the guys who notoriously worked their craft until they became masters. Thats why Fitz is one of the best all time.  Saying Fitz was not a great route runner is a terrible take and demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of the position.  You of course are welcome to your terrible takes but dont act surprised or high and mighty when people call out the fact that your terrible takes are terrible.

Quickness out of breaks is everything in route running for a pro football receiver. Everything else you talk about is technique that every receiver who makes an NFL roster has mastered. These guys get that stuff drilled into them by professional WR coaches for hours, nearly every day, after having had it drilled into them by college coaches and, to an extent, high school coaches. 

Sure, you get guys who ad-lib routes here and there, and guys who make mental errors. How much of that is tolerated depends on the coach (es). 

The best route runners the league has seen are the guys under a certain height. That's what I was telling you before. There have been many great taller receivers, but they succeeded because of their size and athleticism, not their routes. 

 

[ET80]

59 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

I have witnessed it because I know actual NFL scouts

...and there it is. The "I know a guy," argument. 

[Soko]

3 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

"Far from the worst" does not mean you describe someone as "sudden." When you describe a football player as, "sudden," you mean his suddenness stands out compared to his peers. You wouldn't describe a guy with average speed as "fast," now, would you?

I’d describe a fast guy as fast, regardless of whether or not he was the fastest one on the field. But alas monsieur (madam?), you cannot successfully move the goal posts on me. You said they guys like Green, Moss, and Julio lacked sudden quickness in their COD ability - your *ahem* “reasoning” behind that is that there are guys even more sudden than them. True statement, but that doesn’t mean they lack any suddenness, simply because they’re not in the elite category. Oh, and you can add Jalen Ramsey into the slugs over 6’1 too! 

I also find it comical how you tell me what  I mean when I describe somebody. You may be the self proclaimed NFL Expert, but you are not the Ying-Yang expert (nor human anatomy expert, might I add). 

But you do know your potatoes, you should keep up with an aspiring career in those (I have no choice but to assume you are some sort of potato agriculturalist at this point, since you refuse to answer my questions and only a true potato head would be able to diagnose me through a few exchanges over a message board). 

[Soko]

3 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Quickness out of breaks is everything in route running for a pro football receiver. Everything else you talk about is technique that every receiver who makes an NFL roster has mastered. 

 

[NFLExpert49]

12 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

I’d describe a fast guy as fast, regardless of whether or not he was the fastest one on the field. But alas monsieur (madam?), you cannot successfully move the goal posts on me. You said they guys like Green, Moss, and Julio lacked sudden quickness in their COD ability - your *ahem* “reasoning” behind that is that there are guys even more sudden than them. True statement, but that doesn’t mean they lack any suddenness, simply because they’re not in the elite category. Oh, and you can add Jalen Ramsey into the slugs over 6’1 too! 

I also find it comical how you tell me what  I mean when I describe somebody. You may be the self proclaimed NFL Expert, but you are not the Ying-Yang expert (nor human anatomy expert, might I add). 

But you do know your potatoes, you should keep up with an aspiring career in those (I have no choice but to assume you are some sort of potato agriculturalist at this point, since you refuse to answer my questions and only a true potato head would be able to diagnose me through a few exchanges over a message board). 

And now you're getting into a ridiculous semantics argument. I guess you think a combination of that and pointless gifs are going to make up for a lack of substance. 

When I say an NFL receiver isn't sudden, I mean relative to his peers. That's what everyone else means as well. 

Normal people don't describe professional athletes with what they recognize as average speed for their position as "fast." Normal people don't mean that when they say a 6'0" linebacker lacks height, it means he lacks height relative to the general population, or towards every other linebacker in the league. Hey, Ray Lewis was still taller than London Fletcher and Sam Mills! Therefore he's a "tall" linebacker! 

[NFLExpert49]

12 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

 

How clueless do you have to be to think that NFL receivers - whose job it is to learn technique from having it drilled into them by professional coaches for hours on end, nearly every single day - don't have the technique down? 

It's like saying a Top 200 in the world tennis player doesn't know how to hit a proper forehand. 

[Soko]

7 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

And now you're getting into a ridiculous semantics argument. I guess you think a combination of that and pointless gifs are going to make up for a lack of substance. 

When I say an NFL receiver isn't sudden, I mean relative to his peers. That's what everyone else means as well. 

Normal people don't describe professional athletes with what they recognize as average speed for their position as "fast." Normal people don't mean that when they say a 6'0" linebacker lacks height, it means he lacks height relative to the general population, or towards every other linebacker in the league. Hey, Ray Lewis was still taller than London Fletcher and Sam Mills! Therefore he's a "tall" linebacker! 

So what you’re meaning is different from your exact text then? Gotcha!

And you speak for all normal people, and the reason your exact meaning isn’t in line with your text, is because I clearly don’t look at things the way normal people do? Despite other people ITT calling out your posts? Okay...

7 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

How clueless do you have to be to think that NFL receivers - whose job it is to learn technique from having it drilled into them by professional coaches for hours on end, nearly every single day - don't have the technique down? 

It's like saying a Top 200 in the world tennis player doesn't know how to hit a proper forehand. 

No, it isn’t. You said everyone on an NFL roster is a “master” route runner. 

So let me get this straight, AJ Green isn’t sudden because guys like OBJ and Brown are more sudden than him.

But Phillip Dorsett (an NFL wide receiver on a roster) is a master route runner despite guys like Antonio Brown and Deandre Hopkins blowing him out of the water in route running? Thanks for the consistency.

Anyways, here’s my final take: 

“Quickness [separates Green from other WRs]”.

 “He’s very quick. He has good stop-and-start quickness, very good intermediate route runner.”

“He has great quickness at the top of his routes and excellent hands so he’s able to extend and create separation with his length and his catching skills.” 

“He’s an elite player. There’s no real weak points in his game; short, intermediate, catch-and-run, deep, ball skills, quickness, ability to really defeat any type of coverage, size, speed, quickness. He’s a hard guy to handle.”

Who made those quotes? Bill Belichick, on AJ Green.

Want more empirical figures?

10 yard split: 

Julio Jones: 1.50

AJ Green: 1.55

Antonio Brown: 1.56

Isaac Bruce: 1.57

Steve Smith: 1.55

Chad Johnson: 1.58

3-cone:

Julio Jones: 6.66

AJ Green: 6.91

Antonio Brown: 6.98

Isaac Bruce: N/A

Steve Smith: 7.44

Chad Johnson: 7.51

20-yard Shuttle:

Julio Jones: 4.25

AJ Green: 4.21

Antonio Brown: 4.18

Isaac Bruce: 4.15

Steve Smith: 4.25

Chad Johnson: 4.14

Am I declaring these numbers are all completely 100% indicative of their play speeds? Nah, but between actual numbers that measure quickness (unlike, say 40+ yard TDs measuring explosiveness) and someone as smart as Bill Belichick, well, I’ll go with them. And they disagree with you. Thanks for the lols, veggie man.

 

 

 

[NFLExpert49]

30 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

So what you’re meaning is different from your exact text then? Gotcha!

And you speak for all normal people, and the reason your exact meaning isn’t in line with your text, is because I clearly don’t look at things the way normal people do? Despite other people ITT calling out your posts? Okay...

No, it isn’t. You said everyone on an NFL roster is a “master” route runner. 

So let me get this straight, AJ Green isn’t sudden because guys like OBJ and Brown are more sudden than him.

But Phillip Dorsett (an NFL wide receiver on a roster) is a master route runner despite guys like Antonio Brown and Deandre Hopkins blowing him out of the water in route running? Thanks for the consistency.

Anyways, here’s my final take: 

“Quickness [separates Green from other WRs]”.

 “He’s very quick. He has good stop-and-start quickness, very good intermediate route runner.”

“He has great quickness at the top of his routes and excellent hands so he’s able to extend and create separation with his length and his catching skills.” 

“He’s an elite player. There’s no real weak points in his game; short, intermediate, catch-and-run, deep, ball skills, quickness, ability to really defeat any type of coverage, size, speed, quickness. He’s a hard guy to handle.”

Who made those quotes? Bill Belichick, on AJ Green.

Want more empirical figures?

10 yard split: 

Julio Jones: 1.50

AJ Green: 1.55

Antonio Brown: 1.56

Isaac Bruce: 1.57

Steve Smith: 1.55

Chad Johnson: 1.58

3-cone:

Julio Jones: 6.66

AJ Green: 6.91

Antonio Brown: 6.98

Isaac Bruce: N/A

Steve Smith: 7.44

Chad Johnson: 7.51

20-yard Shuttle:

Julio Jones: 4.25

AJ Green: 4.21

Antonio Brown: 4.18

Isaac Bruce: 4.15

Steve Smith: 4.25

Chad Johnson: 4.14

Am I declaring these numbers are all completely 100% indicative of their play speeds? Nah, but between actual numbers that measure quickness (unlike, say 40+ yard TDs measuring explosiveness) and someone as smart as Bill Belichick, well, I’ll go with them. And they disagree with you. Thanks for the lols, veggie man.

 

 

 

No, my meaning is the same as everyone else's (except yours, apparently).

The term, "sudden," is a relative term. So is "fast." A 9-year-old being called "fast" is not the same thing as a 25-year-old football player being called "fast." It's baffling to me that you're even trying to debate this.

Do you understand this thing called, "context," and how it affects the meaning of language? Then again, you apparently had never even heard of the term, "couch potato" before, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by how much you struggle with language. 

Other people in this thread mistakenly believe that Fitzgerald is sudden for an NFL receiver. They make that assumption based on nothing other than him being productive and realizing he doesn't have elite straight line speed. But that's all it is: Amateur fan assumptions. 

Have any of them actually seen him run routes? And if they did, would they even know what they're looking at, and how it compares to others at the position?

The answer to the first question is usually, "no." The answer to the second is, "of course not."

I haven't watched Dorsett's routes, but it might be that he lacks the thing that separates NFL route runners from each other: Quickness out of his breaks. 

Or, his routes might be fine. Maybe he's bad at other things and that prevents him from achieving more. There's more to being a good NFL receiver than route running, in case you weren't aware. 

His lack of production is certainly not because he hasn't mastered route running technique, however. He gets that drilled into him nearly every day by professional coaches.

You're seriously quoting something Belichick told the media? Belichick? Bill "We're on to Cincinnati" Belichick? 

Green isn't quick out of his breaks. No scout has ever said that about him.

10 yard split has nothing to do with quickness out of one's breaks. 10-yard-split is straight line acceleration.

Also, many of your figures are bogus. Watch out for any alleged pre-2007 workout numbers. 

Here are the best performers among WRs in the 3 cone drill in the 2011 combine. Notice who didn't even make the top 15:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#year=2011&workout=THREE_CONE_DRILL&position=WR

Here are the top 20 yard shuttle performances for WRs at the combine that year as well. Notice two guys who aren't there:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#year=2011&workout=TWENTY_YARD_SHUTTLE&position=WR

[Soko]

30 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

No, my meaning is the same as everyone else's (except yours, apparently).

The term, "sudden," is a relative term. So is "fast." A 9-year-old being called "fast" is not the same thing as a 25-year-old football player being called "fast." It's baffling to me that you're even trying to debate this.

Do you understand this thing called, "context," and how it affects the meaning of language? Then again, you apparently had never even heard of the term, "couch potato" before, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by how much you struggle with language. 

You’ve yet to elaborate on your couch potato comment, Mrs. Farmer. I have questions about your knowledge in that department too (amongst others).

Anyway, you’re refusing to acknowledge something so simple: you don’t need to be the best in the NFL at [insert physical skill here] to be [insert adjective that describes said physical skill]. Is Julio Jones fast even though he isn’t as fast as Tyreek Hill? Yes. Just as AJ Green is quick even though he isn’t as quick as OBJ.

30 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Other people in this thread mistakenly believe that Fitzgerald is sudden for an NFL receiver. They make that assumption based on nothing other than him being productive and realizing he doesn't have elite straight line speed. But that's all it is: Amateur fan assumptions.

Have any of them actually seen him run routes? And if they did, would they even know what they're looking at, and how it compares to others at the position?

The answer to the first question is usually, "no." The answer to the second is, "of course not."

Wait, so now know one in the thread has ever watched Fitzgerald play? 

30 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

I haven't watched Dorsett's routes, but it might be that he lacks the thing that separates NFL route runners from each other: Quickness out of his breaks. 

Or, his routes might be fine. Maybe he's bad at other things and that prevents him from achieving more. There's more to being a good NFL receiver than route running, in case you weren't aware. 

His lack of production is certainly not because he hasn't mastered route running technique, however. He gets that drilled into him nearly every day by professional coaches.

Hm, so you’ve never watched him run routes, yet you can say with absolute certainty that his lack of production isn’t because of his route running? 

30 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

You're seriously quoting something Belichick told the media? Belichick? Bill "We're on to Cincinnati" Belichick? 

Belichick over you? And objective numbers? Oh that’s an easy one.

30 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Green isn't quick out of his breaks. No scout has ever said that about him.

As far as I know, Belichick is a scout. So you’re wrong again.

30 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

10 yard split has nothing to do with quickness out of one's breaks. 10-yard-split is straight line acceleration.

Sort of like 40+ yard TDs and explosiveness?

30 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Also, many of your figures are bogus. Watch out for any alleged pre-2007 workout numbers. 

Which numbers are bogus? Antonio Browns’? Way to overlook that one, Mrs. Expert.

30 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Here are the best performers among WRs in the 3 cone drill in the 2011 combine. Notice who didn't even make the top 15:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#year=2011&workout=THREE_CONE_DRILL&position=WR

Notice who placed 3rd in WRs: 6’3, Terrence Toliver. 

30 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Here are the top 20 yard shuttle performances for WRs at the combine that year as well. Notice two guys who aren't there:

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#year=2011&workout=TWENTY_YARD_SHUTTLE&position=WR

Oh, the #1 guy? I noticed him. 6’3, Austin Pettis. 

Please, keep responding. This is too good.

Also: way to completely skip right over your awful logic. If Green isn’t quick because OBJ is quicker, then Dorsett isn’t a good route runner because Antonio Brown is a better one. Hard to call someone who isn’t even good a “master”.

[Bobikus]

If it could be safely assumed that NFL players had mastered the techniques relative to their position, you'd never see defenders with poor tackling form, pass rushers with a lack of pass rush moves, or QBs with bad throwing motions.

[NFLExpert49]

12 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

You’ve yet to elaborate on your couch potato comment, Mrs. Farmer. I have questions about your knowledge in that department too (amongst others).

Anyway, you’re refusing to acknowledge something so simple: you don’t need to be the best in the NFL at [insert physical skill here] to be [insert adjective that describes said physical skill]. Is Julio Jones fast even though he isn’t as fast as Tyreek Hill? Yes. Just as AJ Green is quick even though he isn’t as quick as OBJ.

Wait, so now know one in the thread has ever watched Fitzgerald play? 

Hm, so you’ve never watched him run routes, yet you can say with absolute certainty that his lack of production isn’t because of his route running? 

Belichick over you? And objective numbers? Oh that’s an easy one.

As far as I know, Belichick is a scout. So you’re wrong again.

Sort of like 40+ yard TDs and explosiveness?

Which numbers are bogus? Antonio Browns’? Way to overlook that one, Mrs. Expert.

Notice who placed 3rd in WRs: 6’3, Terrence Toliver. 

Oh, the #1 guy? I noticed him. 6’3, Austin Pettis. 

Please, keep responding. This is too good.

Also: way to completely skip right over your awful logic. If Green isn’t quick because OBJ is quicker, then Dorsett isn’t a good route runner because Antonio Brown is a better one. Hard to call someone who isn’t even good a “master”.

You're not a professional athlete. You're a couch potato. You sit around looking at electronic devices. Every professional athlete is "sudden" in comparison to you.

It has nothing to do with being the "best" at something. It has to do with being elite at something. Julio Jones has elite speed. Or at least he used to. 4.39 is elite. But WRs who run 4.55? Nope. That's not elite. That's mediocre.

A.J. Green is not quick out of his breaks. He's a size, body positioning, and push-off receiver. 

No, chances are nobody in this thread has ever seen much of Fitzgerald running routes. They have seen him in games on TV, which means they really only see him after he has caught the ball. Occasionally, they'll show a replay of him in his pattern, but on those occasions, they wouldn't understand what they're seeing anyway.

Re: Dorsett. There's that straw man we talked about again. Why can't you ever argue with what I actually said? Oh, right. It's because you don't actually have an argument. You have to turn what I said into something completely different in order to argue with it, because you have no idea how to argue.

I said his route running technique most certainly isn't the reason he isn't succeeding. Every receiver in the NFL has the technique down. But as I have said time and time again (and you have continually failed to grasp), what separates route runners from each other in the NFL is quickness out of their breaks. I have no idea whether or not Dorsett is quick out of his breaks.

Bill Belichick is famous for his disgust with sports media. He deliberately tries to mislead them when he isn't giving them as little as possible. He's the guy for that. He's not going to tell a sports journalist - who is in a profession he despises - his real scouting report on a player. He's going to just rattle off some nonsense and call it a day because he hates the media.

I already proved that 40+ yard touchdowns are an excellent statistic for indicating explosiveness. I'm not sure why you continue to bring up something where you made yourself look ridiculous. I mean, it's not like you have any credibility left, but why continue to press the issue?

The numbers that are bogus are the times you posted for players from the 90s/early 00s. Those come from the land of internet fantasy. 

First of all, I never said that 3 cone and shuttle times always indicate quickness out of breaks. They're somewhat correlated, but the form and footwork is different. 

You were the one who brought up 3 cone and shuttle times. 

Secondly, I never said there are no players over 6'1" who are quick out of their breaks. I said, "hardly any." Do you understand the difference between "hardly any" and "no?" There's that straw man again. 

Also, "master" was your word. There's that straw man again. Again, you continually do nothing but make up things that I never said and then argue with those instead. 

Lying about what I actually said and posting a bunch of gifs like some teenager from mommy's computer is apparently all you have at your disposal.  

[NFLExpert49]

10 hours ago, Bobikus said:

If it could be safely assumed that NFL players had mastered the techniques relative to their position, you'd never see defenders with poor tackling form, pass rushers with a lack of pass rush moves, or QBs with bad throwing motions.

Throwing motion isn't something you really want to tinker with. It's a roll of the dice when you do that. A QB who naturally throws one way, and has been doing it since childhood, could be ruined if you do that.

Pass rushers use the moves that they are physically able to have success with. If they don't have the athletic traits to pull off certain moves, coaches aren't going to want them using them. Stick to what you're good at is the philosophy there.

Bad tackling is either about a lack of effort of a lack of courage. You can't teach those. The bad tacklers who last in the league are the ones coaches only put up with because they can cover. 

 

[Superman(DH23)]

On 7/13/2018 at 7:54 PM, NFLExpert49 said:

Quickness out of breaks is everything in route running for a pro football receiver. Everything else you talk about is technique that every receiver who makes an NFL roster has mastered. These guys get that stuff drilled into them by professional WR coaches for hours, nearly every day, after having had it drilled into them by college coaches and, to an extent, high school coaches. 

Sure, you get guys who ad-lib routes here and there, and guys who make mental errors. How much of that is tolerated depends on the coach (es). 

The best route runners the league has seen are the guys under a certain height. That's what I was telling you before. There have been many great taller receivers, but they succeeded because of their size and athleticism, not their routes. 

 

Shirley you cant be serious?  The age old adage in the nfl is everyone is fast.  Everyone is a great athlete what separates players in the nfl is technique.  There is a reason that "unathletic" guys like Tom Waddle were able to consistently get open.

[SmittyBacall]

29 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

You're not a professional athlete. You're a couch potato. You sit around looking at electronic devices. Every professional athlete is "sudden" in comparison to you.

It has nothing to do with being the "best" at something. It has to do with being elite at something. Julio Jones has elite speed. Or at least he used to. 4.39 is elite. But WRs who run 4.55? Nope. That's not elite. That's mediocre.

A.J. Green is not quick out of his breaks. He's a size, body positioning, and push-off receiver. 

No, chances are nobody in this thread has ever seen much of Fitzgerald running routes. They have seen him in games on TV, which means they really only see him after he has caught the ball. Occasionally, they'll show a replay of him in his pattern, but on those occasions, they wouldn't understand what they're seeing anyway.

Re: Dorsett. There's that straw man we talked about again. Why can't you ever argue with what I actually said? Oh, right. It's because you don't actually have an argument. You have to turn what I said into something completely different in order to argue with it, because you have no idea how to argue.

I said his route running technique most certainly isn't the reason he isn't succeeding. Every receiver in the NFL has the technique down. But as I have said time and time again (and you have continually failed to grasp), what separates route runners from each other in the NFL is quickness out of their breaks. I have no idea whether or not Dorsett is quick out of his breaks.

Bill Belichick is famous for his disgust with sports media. He deliberately tries to mislead them when he isn't giving them as little as possible. He's the guy for that. He's not going to tell a sports journalist - who is in a profession he despises - his real scouting report on a player. He's going to just rattle off some nonsense and call it a day because he hates the media.

I already proved that 40+ yard touchdowns are an excellent statistic for indicating explosiveness. I'm not sure why you continue to bring up something where you made yourself look ridiculous. I mean, it's not like you have any credibility left, but why continue to press the issue?

The numbers that are bogus are the times you posted for players from the 90s/early 00s. Those come from the land of internet fantasy. 

First of all, I never said that 3 cone and shuttle times always indicate quickness out of breaks. They're somewhat correlated, but the form and footwork is different. 

You were the one who brought up 3 cone and shuttle times. 

Secondly, I never said there are no players over 6'1" who are quick out of their breaks. I said, "hardly any." Do you understand the difference between "hardly any" and "no?" There's that straw man again. 

Also, "master" was your word. There's that straw man again. Again, you continually do nothing but make up things that I never said and then argue with those instead. 

Lying about what I actually said and posting a bunch of gifs like some teenager from mommy's computer is apparently all you have at your disposal.  

Dude, give it up. It’s time to throw in the towel.

[Superman(DH23)]

43 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Throwing motion isn't something you really want to tinker with. It's a roll of the dice when you do that. A QB who naturally throws one way, and has been doing it since childhood, could be ruined if you do that.

Pass rushers use the moves that they are physically able to have success with. If they don't have the athletic traits to pull off certain moves, coaches aren't going to want them using them. Stick to what you're good at is the philosophy there.

Bad tackling is either about a lack of effort of a lack of courage. You can't teach those. The bad tacklers who last in the league are the ones coaches only put up with because they can cover. 

 

This post says everything we need to know about your knowledge of the game.  Tackling is technique.  Pass rush is about technique, a lot of it being hand technique.  My god, go watch a youtube scouting video at least to educate yourself.