Is Larry Fitzgerald Still A Top 12 WR Talent Wise?

[Soko]

1 hour ago, NFLExpert49 said:

 You're not a professional athlete. You're a couch potato. You sit around looking at electronic devices. Every professional athlete is "sudden" in comparison to you.

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It has nothing to do with being the "best" at something. It has to do with being elite at something. Julio Jones has elite speed. Or at least he used to. 4.39 is elite. But WRs who run 4.55? Nope. That's not elite. That's mediocre.

At least use your awful logic consistently.

With the logic you used for AJ, Julio Jones isn’t fast because Tyreek Hill is the elite speedster in the NFL.

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A.J. Green is not quick out of his breaks. He's a size, body positioning, and push-off receiver. 

Keep saying it and it’ll start being true!

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No, chances are nobody in this thread has ever seen much of Fitzgerald running routes. They have seen him in games on TV, which means they really only see him after he has caught the ball. Occasionally, they'll show a replay of him in his pattern, but on those occasions, they wouldn't understand what they're seeing anyway.

Back to the “I’m the smartest guy in the room” shtick you have. Are you actually Jim Dolan?

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Re: Dorsett. There's that straw man we talked about again. Why can't you ever argue with what I actually said? Oh, right. It's because you don't actually have an argument. You have to turn what I said into something completely different in order to argue with it, because you have no idea how to argue.

Nah, I simply call obvious fallacies when I see them. You can’t xomment on his route running “most certainly” being squat if you also “didn’t watch him run routes”.

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I said his route running technique most certainly isn't the reason he isn't succeeding. Every receiver in the NFL has the technique down. But as I have said time and time again (and you have continually failed to grasp), what separates route runners from each other in the NFL is quickness out of their breaks. I have no idea whether or not Dorsett is quick out of his breaks.

Okay, so when Dorsett is rounding off the top of his routes, that’s because he’s not quick enough out of his breaks?

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Bill Belichick is famous for his disgust with sports media. He deliberately tries to mislead them when he isn't giving them as little as possible. He's the guy for that. He's not going to tell a sports journalist - who is in a profession he despises - his real scouting report on a player. He's going to just rattle off some nonsense and call it a day because he hates the media.

Yeah, Bill just constantly lies with zero substance at all. Can you find a single instance of another professional calling Green sluggish in his breaks?

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I already proved that 40+ yard touchdowns are an excellent statistic for indicating explosiveness. I'm not sure why you continue to bring up something where you made yourself look ridiculous. I mean, it's not like you have any credibility left, but why continue to press the issue?

Pot, meet kettle. 

Also, you didn’t “prove” anything. You just said that 40+ yard TDs were explosive stats, people disagreed, and you whined back. That’s not proving jack.

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The numbers that are bogus are the times you posted for players from the 90s/early 00s. Those come from the land of internet fantasy. 

So...not Brown’s. 

Post the correct ones then? Or simply just admit the numbers don’t correlate to your fantasies?

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First of all, I never said that 3 cone and shuttle times always indicate quickness out of breaks. They're somewhat correlated, but the form and footwork is different. 

You were the one who brought up 3 cone and shuttle times. 

Well, yeah. Duh. I brought them up. As far as drills go, they’re probably the best indicators of quickness/agility/change of direction. And two of the top performers were over tor magical number of 6’1. And Green/Julio matched, exceeded, or came within reach of other quick guys.

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Secondly, I never said there are no players over 6'1" who are quick out of their breaks. I said, "hardly any." Do you understand the difference between "hardly any" and "no?" There's that straw man again. 

I’m paraphrasing at this point, because I’m getting tired of quoting you over and over and over again. You said hardly any over 6’1 were quick, and Jerry Rice may be the only exception. Implying that no one else over 6’1 other than Jerry is sudden. You’re going to wait all the way till now to clarify that statement? Really?

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Also, "master" was your word. There's that straw man again. Again, you continually do nothing but make up things that I never said and then argue with those instead. 

Ha! You said all NFL receivers mastered route running technique. Which is laughably false. 

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Lying about what I actually said and posting a bunch of gifs like some teenager from mommy's computer is apparently all you have at your disposal.  

[Soko]

40 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

Dude, give it up. It’s time to throw in the towel.

It’s too good to stop, tbh.

[ET80]

14 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Have any of them actually seen him run routes? And if they did, would they even know what they're looking at, and how it compares to others at the position?

Good question. You know someone who has actually seen him running routes? Richard Sherman. He shared a few thoughts on the subject a while back:

Take his route running, for instance. On paper, his route might look like a straight line. But when he runs it, it looks more like a squiggly line where he sort of meanders off his track. Some people might mistake this for poor route running. But what he’s really doing is getting the timing right.

He understands the timing of the quarterback’s drop, the timing of the route, the timing of the play and the coverage that the defense is in. And at the line of scrimmage, he has a plethora of tricks and moves — head-fakes and stuff like that — that help him get separation. If he gets a lot of separation quickly, he needs to adjust his route a little so as to not throw off the timing of the play. Same for if he gets jammed. Timing is everything.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/richard-sherman-seahawks-toughest-receivers-ive-ever-covered

So, we can break this down into two camps now:

- You and your "scout friend" who are adamant that he runs bad routes, merely basing it off of your subjective eye test; You and Scouty McScoutster are gonna die on the hill that he runs bad routes and doesn't create separation.

- Us couch potatoes and sweet potatoes, along with an All Pro CB who faced Fitzgerald 2x a year for the last 5+ years, who understand the nuances behind the routes and understand the timing that needs to be in place to make plays. 

So, more on your scout friend, Scouty - did he work for Jeff Fisher and Les Snead? Or Chuck Pagano and Ryan Grigson? Because that would answer a LOT if questions I have about his competency with this job.

[SmittyBacall]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

It’s too good to stop, tbh.

He’s new to the board and he’s digging a hole his reputation may never recover from.

The bit about dismissing Belichek’s comments on AJ Green because he toys with the media was the pinnacle of ignorance. 

[NFLExpert49]

2 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

Shirley you cant be serious?  The age old adage in the nfl is everyone is fast.  Everyone is a great athlete what separates players in the nfl is technique.  There is a reason that "unathletic" guys like Tom Waddle were able to consistently get open.

Hahaha, what? 

It's exactly the opposite. Everyone in the NFL has great technique; it's the differences in athleticism (and for some positions, intelligence) that separate them.

There's a reason you didn't see Anquan Boldin doing what DeSean Jackson did. There's a reason you don't see Derrick Henry doing what Adrian Peterson did. There's a reason Derrick Strait wasn't Deion Sanders. 

Tom Waddle was able to constantly get open? If he's your example for technique > athleticism, you just owned yourself. Waddle was as marginal an NFL receiver as it gets. Was Randy Moss better than him because of technique? 

You're not even trying now. 

[NFLExpert49]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

At least use your awful logic consistently.

With the logic you used for AJ, Julio Jones isn’t fast because Tyreek Hill is the elite speedster in the NFL.

Keep saying it and it’ll start being true!

Back to the “I’m the smartest guy in the room” shtick you have. Are you actually Jim Dolan?

Nah, I simply call obvious fallacies when I see them. You can’t xomment on his route running “most certainly” being squat if you also “didn’t watch him run routes”.

Okay, so when Dorsett is rounding off the top of his routes, that’s because he’s not quick enough out of his breaks?

Yeah, Bill just constantly lies with zero substance at all. Can you find a single instance of another professional calling Green sluggish in his breaks?

Pot, meet kettle. 

Also, you didn’t “prove” anything. You just said that 40+ yard TDs were explosive stats, people disagreed, and you whined back. That’s not proving jack.

So...not Brown’s. 

Post the correct ones then? Or simply just admit the numbers don’t correlate to your fantasies?

Well, yeah. Duh. I brought them up. As far as drills go, they’re probably the best indicators of quickness/agility/change of direction. And two of the top performers were over tor magical number of 6’1. And Green/Julio matched, exceeded, or came within reach of other quick guys.

I’m paraphrasing at this point, because I’m getting tired of quoting you over and over and over again. You said hardly any over 6’1 were quick, and Jerry Rice may be the only exception. Implying that no one else over 6’1 other than Jerry is sudden. You’re going to wait all the way till now to clarify that statement? Really?

Ha! You said all NFL receivers mastered route running technique. Which is laughably false. 

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"With the logic you used for AJ, Julio Jones isn’t fast because Tyreek Hill is the elite speedster in the NFL."

That's not the logic I used. Not at all. You have the IQ of a plant.

 

"Nah, I simply call obvious fallacies when I see them. You can’t xomment on his route running “most certainly” being squat if you also 'didn’t watch him run routes'"

That's rich, coming from a fallacy machine like you. You have nothing but fallacies and pointless gifs.

I can safely say that his technique is fine because he has been receiving constant professional coaching for 3 years. This after receiving the same thing for years in college. 

 

"Okay, so when Dorsett is rounding off the top of his routes, that’s because he’s not quick enough out of his breaks?"

How do you know he's rounding off the top of his routes? Do you even know what a proper route looks like?

The answer to the first question is you're just talking out of your ***, and the answer to the second is, of course, "no."

 

"Yeah, Bill just constantly lies with zero substance at all. Can you find a single instance of another professional calling Green sluggish in his breaks?"

To where it's visible on the internet? The only instances where you hear negative things about a player's ability are when an anonymous scout says something. No coach talks about another team's receiver to the media and goes, "he's not really quick out of his breaks." That has never happened in the history of the NFL. 

 

"Also, you didn’t “prove” anything. You just said that 40+ yard TDs were explosive stats, people disagreed, and you whined back. That’s not proving jack."

All the guys at the top of the list are players people would unanimously agree are among the most explosive receivers ever. All the guys at the bottom of the list (except, apparently, Fitzgerald...for those in this thread who were unaware) are guys people would unanimously agree were not very explosive receivers. And this includes, of course, nearly every tight end. The tight ends slightly higher up the list? Why, Vernon Davis and Shannon Sharpe, of course. 

It makes too much sense for you, though.

"Post the correct ones then? Or simply just admit the numbers don’t correlate to your fantasies?"

The internet is not a reliable source for pre-2006 workout numbers, unless you're using Google archives to find articles written at the time the players actually worked out.

"Well, yeah. Duh. I brought them up. As far as drills go, they’re probably the best indicators of quickness/agility/change of direction. And two of the top performers were over tor magical number of 6’1. And Green/Julio matched, exceeded, or came within reach of other quick guys."

No, they didn't. Of the two, only Jones ranked in the Top 15 in either drill among their own receiver class. 

"I’m paraphrasing at this point, because I’m getting tired of quoting you over and over and over again. You said hardly any over 6’1 were quick, and Jerry Rice may be the only exception. Implying that no one else over 6’1 other than Jerry is sudden. You’re going to wait all the way till now to clarify that statement? Really?"

I didn't "imply" anything. I said he may have been the only exception. And you haven't proven otherwise. You brought up two drills that only very loosely correlate to quickness coming out of breaks (which is being able to plant and drive off cuts), and of the guys over 6'1" who actually did impressively relative to their class, none of them were even successful receivers in the NFL. Jones was 9th in the 3 cone, which isn't overly impressive. Terrence Toliver didn't even make an NFL roster, so he's not an example of an NFL receiver over 6'1" other than Rice. 

 

[NFLExpert49]

1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

He’s new to the board and he’s digging a hole his reputation may never recover from.

The bit about dismissing Belichek’s comments on AJ Green because he toys with the media was the pinnacle of ignorance. 

Have you ever heard the term, "coach speak?"

Find me a single example of Bill Belichick saying something negative about the abilities of a player on another team. 

[NFLExpert49]

2 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

This post says everything we need to know about your knowledge of the game.  Tackling is technique.  Pass rush is about technique, a lot of it being hand technique.  My god, go watch a youtube scouting video at least to educate yourself.

The technique you use as a pass rusher depends on what you can physically do. Anybody can do a move, but are they strong and explosive enough to do it effectively? 

Bad tackling is the result of either fear or lack of effort. The bad technique is players either being lazy on the field, or afraid to execute it. Coaches only put up with this from elite coverage DBs because they don't want to sacrifice elite coverage ability. 

[NFLExpert49]

2 hours ago, ET80 said:

Good question. You know someone who has actually seen him running routes? Richard Sherman. He shared a few thoughts on the subject a while back:

Take his route running, for instance. On paper, his route might look like a straight line. But when he runs it, it looks more like a squiggly line where he sort of meanders off his track. Some people might mistake this for poor route running. But what he’s really doing is getting the timing right.

He understands the timing of the quarterback’s drop, the timing of the route, the timing of the play and the coverage that the defense is in. And at the line of scrimmage, he has a plethora of tricks and moves — head-fakes and stuff like that — that help him get separation. If he gets a lot of separation quickly, he needs to adjust his route a little so as to not throw off the timing of the play. Same for if he gets jammed. Timing is everything.

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/richard-sherman-seahawks-toughest-receivers-ive-ever-covered

So, we can break this down into two camps now:

- You and your "scout friend" who are adamant that he runs bad routes, merely basing it off of your subjective eye test; You and Scouty McScoutster are gonna die on the hill that he runs bad routes and doesn't create separation.

- Us couch potatoes and sweet potatoes, along with an All Pro CB who faced Fitzgerald 2x a year for the last 5+ years, who understand the nuances behind the routes and understand the timing that needs to be in place to make plays. 

So, more on your scout friend, Scouty - did he work for Jeff Fisher and Les Snead? Or Chuck Pagano and Ryan Grigson? Because that would answer a LOT if questions I have about his competency with this job.

Where in there does Sherman say Fitzgerald is great at changing direction in his routes/quick out of his breaks? 

Sherman agrees with us. 

[ET80]

3 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Where in there does Sherman say Fitzgerald is great at changing direction in his routes/quick out of his breaks? 

Sherman agrees with us. 

I’ll drop Larry in the “physical” category as well, but he’s another one of those do-it-all guys, like Julio. 

No. No he doesn't. Might help to read the article.

But, this was about your hot take on how Fitzgerald ran bad routes. You did say that...and you're flat out wrong. Sherman completely disagrees with you. 

I'd say stop while you're ahead, but you're so far behind at this point, I'd ask you to continue, simply for my amusement. 

[NFLExpert49]

Just now, ET80 said:

I’ll drop Larry in the “physical” category as well, but he’s another one of those do-it-all guys, like Julio. 

No. No he doesn't. Might help to read the article.

But, this was about your hot take on how Fitzgerald ran bad routes. You did say that...and you're flat out wrong. Sherman completely disagrees with you. 

I'd say stop while you're ahead, but you're so far behind at this point, I'd ask you to continue, simply for my amusement. 

Sherman never said he ran good routes. He said he has a great sense of timing. He even acknowledged that his routes "might look like bad route running to some."

Would Sherman have said that if Fitzgerald were quick out of his breaks/great at changing direction, like people on this forum say? Nope.

Great timing =/= great route running. 

And what does him being a "do-it-all guy like Julio" have to do with anything? 

You just keep embarrassing yourself. It's painful to watch. 

[Superman(DH23)]

9 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

The technique you use as a pass rusher depends on what you can physically do. Anybody can do a move, but are they strong and explosive enough to do it effectively? 

Bad tackling is the result of either fear or lack of effort. The bad technique is players either being lazy on the field, or afraid to execute it. Coaches only put up with this from elite coverage DBs because they don't want to sacrifice elite coverage ability. 

Dude you are so laughably clueless on this stuff.  There has been a lot of talk over the last 15-20 years about the decline of tackling in the NFL.  Now according to you its a pure coincidence that for the last 15-20 years we have seen more and more restrictions placed on full contact practices.  Now you can stand on an island and say one has nothing to do with the other, or you can listen to the countless coaches and scouts who say they go hand in hand bc you cant practice tackling anymore and nobody is working on their technique.  If you coached even peewee level football you would know there is a lot of technique in tackling.

As for your insistence that pass rush is about athleticism id like to introduce you to vernon gholston.  Vernon was a freak of nature who had inhuman sparq numbers.  Vernon was also somebody who got by in college on his athletic traits and had VERY POOR technical ability.  Ask anyone who has EVER played on the line and they will tell that line in play is 95% leverage and technique and 5% power and athleticism. 

[NFLExpert49]

Just now, Superman(DH23) said:

Dude you are so laughably clueless on this stuff.  There has been a lot of talk over the last 15-20 years about the decline of tackling in the NFL.  Now according to you its a pure coincidence that for the last 15-20 years we have seen more and more restrictions placed on full contact practices.  Now you can stand on an island and say one has nothing to do with the other, or you can listen to the countless coaches and scouts who say they go hand in hand bc you cant practice tackling anymore and nobody is working on their technique.  If you coached even peewee level football you would know there is a lot of technique in tackling.

As for your insistence that pass rush is about athleticism id like to introduce you to vernon gholston.  Vernon was a freak of nature who had inhuman sparq numbers.  Vernon was also somebody who got by in college on his athletic traits and had VERY POOR technical ability.  Ask anyone who has EVER played on the line and they will tell that line in play is 95% leverage and technique and 5% power and athleticism. 

And what does that have to do with route running, which every team practices constantly? 

The lack of logic and reasoning abilities from people in this thread is unreal. 

Re: Gholston: That's called, "lazy and doesn't listen to coaches, and didn't play as a result." The guys who play and make rosters are the guys who don't ignore coaches. 

[ET80]

1 minute ago, NFLExpert49 said:

The lack of logic and reasoning abilities from people in this thread is unreal. 

The irony in this statement is incredible.

[ET80]

9 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Sherman never said he ran good routes. He said he has a great sense of timing. He even acknowledged that his routes "might look like bad route running to some."

Exactly - might look like bad route running, but he quickly corrects it by going into the timing aspect of the route. That's not even football based, it's basic English. Is that the issue here? Are we speaking in a language that you're not comprehending?

11 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

And what does him being a "do-it-all guy like Julio" have to do with anything? 

Holy hell, did you even READ what I posted?

I’ll start with Julio Jones because he can basically do everything. 

I'm really starting to think it's a communication issue with this argument. You're typing a bunch of stuff, you're not reading it or understanding it.

13 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

You just keep embarrassing yourself. It's painful to watch. 

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.