Let's Talk Defense

[MOSteelers56]

There's been a lot of talk this offseason about our defense(rightly so). A lot has been mentioned about our OLB's and their jobs and potentially switching sides. There's been some talk of going to a hybrid look, as well as talk of going to more sub package stuff. BTSC put out a great article that explains something we might be seeing a lot more of this upcoming season. 

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2018/6/4/17408350/steelers-may-use-more-4-3-looks-to-improve-run-defense-in-2018-keith-butler-mike-tomlin-nfl-news 

This article breaks down how we might be using Dupree and Watt this season. I, personally, like this direction. Watt seems like an ideal candidate to play the Sam spot in a 4-3. This gives Dupree less to do(set the edge - rush the passer), which is probably a wise decision. I would recommend giving this article a look. It clears up a lot of things being discussed around here. 

[MOSteelers56]

I'll also get the discussion going by saying this: 

Maybe our potential reliance on the 4-3 is one of the reasons why we did not address with ILB with the draft. Perhaps they feel confident in a linebacking corps of Watt - Bostic/Williams/Matakevich - <-- One of those guys/One of the Safeties.

[3rivers]

6 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I'll also get the discussion going by saying this: 

Maybe our potential reliance on the 4-3 is one of the reasons why we did not address with ILB with the draft. Perhaps they feel confident in a linebacking corps of Watt - Bostic/Williams/Matakevich - <-- One of those guys/One of the Safeties.

Maybe the  coaches and FO are trying to get their delusional worth from the RD1 dupree pick and in the process will compromise the D despite allowing dupree to pad his stats   Watt was clearly better than dupree in all phases as a rookie and despite having an injury for a bit.  If anything they should allow Watt to flourish instead of trying to prove the RD1 pick of dupree. 

dupree got pancaked in the playoffs by a TE and ranked 3rd worst of all the players at his position via PFF. Instead of trying to prove their RD1 pick in dupree was valid, they should have drafted or signed a UFA to replace him, and never gave him the 5th year option.  I hope Adeniyi makes the team and somehow gets playing time but that too will be difficult is dupree is healthy. 

Not only is this boom or bust for dupree, but with the coaches forcing the issue, it could also bust the D or break it down up front. We needed better pass rush, and this is worse pass rush. Getting stats (sacks) vs bad teams means nothing when you play the good teams and it showed.  

This offseason had different issues to address, but I thought edge would have been one priority. Signing bell didn't help, and now we have to live with this.  If dupree stays healthy and is at ROLB, there won't be anymore excuses. He couldn't outplay RT's, how is he going to do vs a LT who is usually better? These coaches and FO are somehow delusional when it comes to dupree from what I have observed thus far. 

 

The run D was the worst and I understand making changes to address this, good to see they recognized something needed to change but how they are going about it is another story.  I just don't see dupree as a starter anywhere and we will have to watch this for one more season. He is a fish out of water as a LB in a 4-3. He was a slow off the snap DE, and just doesn't have the instincts to play 4-3 LB from what I have watched.   But lets see if he can start to learn how to play 4-3LB  in the NFL 

The 133.5 yards per game allowed during that stretch would have the Steelers ranked 31st in the NFL, while their 5.1 yards per carry would rank dead last.

 

There was one problem with this: like any inside backer, the Sam must be instinctive and must recognize things quickly. But these didn’t seem to be areas where Dupree excelled — which brings his use at the Sam in 2018 into question.

 

Does anyone else here think dupree at 4-3LB would be a fish out of water?

[turtle28]

On 6/4/2018 at 1:53 PM, 3rivers said:

Maybe the  coaches and FO are trying to get their delusional worth from the RD1 dupree pick and in the process will compromise the D despite allowing dupree to pad his stats   Watt was clearly better than dupree in all phases as a rookie and despite having an injury for a bit.  If anything they should allow Watt to flourish instead of trying to prove the RD1 pick of dupree. 

dupree got pancaked in the playoffs by a TE and ranked 3rd worst of all the players at his position via PFF. Instead of trying to prove their RD1 pick in dupree was valid, they should have drafted or signed a UFA to replace him, and never gave him the 5th year option.  I hope Adeniyi makes the team and somehow gets playing time but that too will be difficult is dupree is healthy. 

Not only is this boom or bust for dupree, but with the coaches forcing the issue, it could also bust the D or break it down up front. We needed better pass rush, and this is worse pass rush. Getting stats (sacks) vs bad teams means nothing when you play the good teams and it showed.  

This offseason had different issues to address, but I thought edge would have been one priority. Signing bell didn't help, and now we have to live with this.  If dupree stays healthy and is at ROLB, there won't be anymore excuses. He couldn't outplay RT's, how is he going to do vs a LT who is usually better? These coaches and FO are somehow delusional when it comes to dupree from what I have observed thus far. 

 

The run D was the worst and I understand making changes to address this, good to see they recognized something needed to change but how they are going about it is another story.  I just don't see dupree as a starter anywhere and we will have to watch this for one more season. He is a fish out of water as a LB in a 4-3. He was a slow off the snap DE, and just doesn't have the instincts to play 4-3 LB from what I have watched.   But lets see if he can start to learn how to play 4-3LB  in the NFL 

The 133.5 yards per game allowed during that stretch would have the Steelers ranked 31st in the NFL, while their 5.1 yards per carry would rank dead last.

 

There was one problem with this: like any inside backer, the Sam must be instinctive and must recognize things quickly. But these didn’t seem to be areas where Dupree excelled — which brings his use at the Sam in 2018 into question.

 

Does anyone else here think dupree at 4-3LB would be a fish out of water?

Yes, IMO. If they moved to the 4-3 or a hybrid scheme it would be better if Watt & Dupree would play 4-3 DE; at least on passing downs. Watt could be a SLB on run downs and put his hand in the dirt or stand up as a pass rusher on passing downs but it wouldn’t be ideal. I think Dupree is strictly a 3-4 OLB or 4-3 DE. I think he’d be lost at 4-3 OLB.

If they move to the 4-3, I would start Terrell Edmunds at WLB. He could be like what Telvin Smith is for Jax.

Here’s my thing, does anyone know if/think they’ll play Edmunds as a dime ILB?

I think he’d do well there in the way that a lot of strong safety types have done in the last few years since the NFL had become more pass happy. 

IMO they should take Vince Williams off the field in passing situations and put Edmunds on the field in his place. This should/could help mitigate the loss of Shazier’s coverage abilities at ILB. 

[muncher]

the more tomlin is rumored to be handling the defense, the worst it gets

[turtle28]

12 hours ago, muncher said:

the more tomlin is rumored to be handling the defense, the worst it gets

He’s a 4-3 guy trying to help run a 3-4. It’s be better to just let Butler handle it all. 

The issue has been youth/injuries- especially last year. Losing shazier really hurt.

[Big Snack]

I dont see how losing shazier was tomlins fault. With shazier playing we were absolutely a superbowl contender. We finallly even played the pats like we were the better team in spite of haleys playcalling, and if not for that horrible overturned td we have that game. Now once shazier was hurt I had already believed our season would fall short and possibly be a 1st round  loss in the playoffs. We could mask and hide his loss to a degree the rest of the season but the top 3 or 4 teams in the AFC would all have made us pay for it. Even when the Jags went up early in the playoff game this team didnt quit and charged back. The single biggest difference in that loss was as soon as we would get even or within a score we gave up 3rd down afer 3rd down conversion and a lot of those were dump offs to the flats where we saw our lbs 2 steps short atleast every time of forcing the punt. If shazier is there i dont see them converting all those 3rds but giving the ball back to Ben who was marching up and down the field.

The loss of shazier would have been the same as if we lost troy mid season on either of our superbowl run with him. Troy was the catalyst of everything that defense was  going to do just like shazier was for us last year. I get that Tomlin is not everyones favorite around here but saying he is the cause of why this defense is so lacking is blinded hate of a quality head coach even if he is not perfect. Does this team need more talent and splash play makers on defense? absolutely. But the biggest deficit our defense is facing is that horrific injury to shazier. even if we had a chance to draft smith this year i doubt he plays and leads our defense to the same level as what shazier would have this season. I am not ecstatic of our options to replace him but with I do like the slight philosophy change to add someone like burnett who played  the dime lb for the last few years for the pack. That in itself is a huge upgrade of seeing sean spence giving up another 1st down on 3rd and 9. Its not shazier close but ill take it considering the circumstances.

[3rivers]

The D needs better consistent pressure. dupree is not going to do that, so they better let Watt and others have a shot. The in the secondary, if burns doesn't shape up, time to ship him out and let others have a chance.  ILB though, was dealt a serious loss when shazier got injured and that can't be replaced. If they would have drafted a player in RD1 or UFA that might have helped but for now we are relying on bostic. 

The offence needs to play to the hype because they're running out of ways to make it more elite talent wise . maybe if we got Kelce or Gronk, but thats ti, the rest of the squad is stacked. No more excuses

[VigilantZombie]

The reality is losing Shazier was the worst possible thing that could have happened to our defense. We have 1 LB that is worth mentioning and last year he was a rookie. We have 2 solid DEs, questions at DT and CB and S. Not exactly a thrilling way to head into a new season.

 

 

 

[muncher]

On 7/26/2018 at 12:32 PM, turtle28 said:

He’s a 4-3 guy trying to help run a 3-4. It’s be better to just let Butler handle it all. 

The issue has been youth/injuries- especially last year. Losing shazier really hurt.

3-4, 4-3...........whatever.

tomlin is suppose to be a secondary guru. our secondary has pretty much sucked since hes been here.

who has he developed into a good/great DB?

[VigilantZombie]

The defense as a whole has suffered since Tomlin has been here. Our offense in his time has been elite. Its the opposite quite frankly of what Cowher delivered to us, with the exception of his final couple years.

Our defenee needs a major overhaul. There is simply no denying we need 1 Ibs, an olb, NT, and likely a cb and s

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, wwhickok said:

The defense as a whole has suffered since Tomlin has been here. Our offense in his time has been elite. Its the opposite quite frankly of what Cowher delivered to us, with the exception of his final couple years.

Our defenee needs a major overhaul. There is simply no denying we need 1 Ibs, an olb, NT, and likely a cb and s

I'm gonna counter with Tomlin has also had the cap constraints of Ben Roethlisberger being paid his entire HC tenure.  Cowher never had a top paid elite QB, so he had more cap available to pay defensive players.

[warfelg]

As for all the 4-3/3-4 stuff.  Who cares?  Seriously.  That stuff is meaningless anymore.  It's about the scheme once the snap happens.  And that's where we struggled.  This isn't about Tomlin being a secondary guy and the secondary is still bad.  Because guess what, Keith Butler is a Linebacker/passrush guy and our pass rush sucks too.  Trying to blame the defense stuff on Tomlin is as idiotic as it comes because then when the offense is struggling people want to say it's because Tomlin spends too much time with the defense.  So to those people I've got a great 3 step program for you:

1 - Buy some duct tape

2 - Pull off a 5 inch long piece

3 - Apply over your mouth

Seriously.  I know 2 or 3 of you are coaches and understand on gamedays how much is going on and what all you have to pay attention to and that it's up to your assistant coaches.  There is no HC that is that highly involved to play to play aspects in games.  And on top of that It's not like he's spending all his practice time with the secondary.  Reports back this up, but he goes to the meetings with the secondary (you can tell how much he was into it by the way he laid into Mitchell and Burns on game days) spends a little bit of time with them on the field, but he isn't the primary guy working with them practice to practice.

[VigilantZombie]

37 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I'm gonna counter with Tomlin has also had the cap constraints of Ben Roethlisberger being paid his entire HC tenure.  Cowher never had a top paid elite QB, so he had more cap available to pay defensive players.

That is a fair point to a degree

[warfelg]

26 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

That is a fair point to a degree

When I’m off work/done at the gym I’ll expand upon this. But when Cowher was the HC most often the the top 5 paid players year to year was a 70/30 defense/offense balance. Under Tomlin it’s been the exact opposite with offensive players getting paid first. Some of that is the talent, but it effects building a defense. 

 

On top of that the percent of cap spent on offense has sky has sky rocketed during Tomlins time, again it means a restricted ability to spend on defense. 

 

The last thing I looked at was where the picks were used and again, under Cowher we spent more pucks on defense and under Tomlin it’s been the inverse yet again. 

 

Put all of this into context: the last time we were balanced on that was under Chuck Noll. 

Mans that’s not all on Tomlin. That’s on Colbert too. That’s on position coaches. That’s on scouts. Too many people put this crap on Tomlin alone and it’s so old it’s starting to turn into cheese.