BAL loses 2 OTA practices, Harbaugh and owner fined for OTA rules violation

[RuskieTitan]

Should have docked them a 1st round pick. That'll get them to follow the rules better.

[diamondbull424]

15 hours ago, DoleINGout said:

Nice cop out.

You copped out when you went completely off topic. How do these rules violations affect the Ravens this offseason. How might they impact their future? Is this similar to what happened in the past? All relevant topics. 

Talking about a made up narrative involving a coach completely unrelated to the team? Not so much. Especially when the defense switched defensive philosophies after Rex Ryan took the team from a 43 centric defense under Lewis to a 34 centric defense.

Marvin Lewis coaching tree is less relevant when concerning Ryan because his dad Buddy Ryan was a renowned defensive mind that heavily influenced his sons, which we saw in the defensive switch that occurred once he took over.

Your knowledge on the Ravens is heavily flawed. You even mentioned that Brian Billick was the architect of our OL. Which is, again, entirely wrong and proves your trollish ignorance.

Matt Birk was acquired in 2009 (2 years removed from Billick), Michael Oher was drafted in 2009 (2 years removed from Billick), Bryant McKinnie was acquired in 2011 (4 years after Billick influence), and Kelechi Osemele was drafted in 2012 (5 years removed from Billick).

So the only returning player along the OL from Billicks tenure was Marshal Yanda. Andy Moeller the OL coach was also a Harbaugh guy. So yeah, at least get your knowledge correct on the Ravens before ushering in nonsensical information into the narrative to lambast a team with information that isn’t relevant to the topic.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll leave you to your delusions of troll grandeur.

[DoleINGout]

56 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

You copped out when you went completely off topic. How do these rules violations affect the Ravens this offseason. How might they impact their future? Is this similar to what happened in the past? All relevant topics. 

Talking about a made up narrative involving a coach completely unrelated to the team? Not so much. Especially when the defense switched defensive philosophies after Rex Ryan took the team from a 43 centric defense under Lewis to a 34 centric defense.

Marvin Lewis coaching tree is less relevant when concerning Ryan because his dad Buddy Ryan was a renowned defensive mind that heavily influenced his sons, which we saw in the defensive switch that occurred once he took over.

Your knowledge on the Ravens is heavily flawed. You even mentioned that Brian Billick was the architect of our OL. Which is, again, entirely wrong and proves your trollish ignorance.

Matt Birk was acquired in 2009 (2 years removed from Billick), Michael Oher was drafted in 2009 (2 years removed from Billick), Bryant McKinnie was acquired in 2011 (4 years after Billick influence), and Kelechi Osemele was drafted in 2012 (5 years removed from Billick).

So the only returning player along the OL from Billicks tenure was Marshal Yanda. Andy Moeller the OL coach was also a Harbaugh guy. So yeah, at least get your knowledge correct on the Ravens before ushering in nonsensical information into the narrative to lambast a team with information that isn’t relevant to the topic.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll leave you to your delusions of troll grandeur.

You Ravens fans can keep Harbaugh and remain average then watch the team get worse without Ozzie Newsome in the next five years. Marvin Lewis does not get enough credit from you guys for essentially building the Ravens from its inaugural 1996 season into a Super Bowl winner by 2000. Rex Ryan is on record as saying he implemented what he learned from Lewis on his teams. A 2016 Baltimore Sun article I already linked to opens with the first sentence crediting Marvin Lewis as the man with the blueprint for their modern day defense. Rex Ryan was obviously influemsed more by his dad and had used 34 concepts but don’t be ignorant and act like he Ravens defense wasn’t mixed. Ryan actually used as much 43 in his defense as 34 with the Ravens, Jets, and Bills. It was the first Hybrid defense that dominated and still is used today. Continue to throw in variations of names with troll in it, doesn’t make your points any more valid or mine any less. As I said, last five years, 40-40.

[DoleINGout]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

You copped out when you went completely off topic. How do these rules violations affect the Ravens this offseason. How might they impact their future? Is this similar to what happened in the past? All relevant topics. 

Brought it up multiple times in several posts that this is the third time under Harbaugh since 2010 they have been penalized. Relevant enough for you? In my last post I mentioned how another poster said this could be holding the team back. How is that irrelevant? My original comment pointed out the fact that John Harbaugh is cheater for doing this multiple times yet he will be the first from their team to complain about how referees officiate or the NFL makes its rules and chooses to intervene. For that, and as a result of just his lastest offense, I think he is a sore loser. Again, relevant.

[DoleINGout]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Your knowledge on the Ravens is heavily flawed. You even mentioned that Brian Billick was the architect of our OL. Which is, again, entirely wrong and proves your trollish ignorance.

Matt Birk was acquired in 2009 (2 years removed from Billick), Michael Oher was drafted in 2009 (2 years removed from Billick), Bryant McKinnie was acquired in 2011 (4 years after Billick influence), and Kelechi Osemele was drafted in 2012 (5 years removed from Billick).

No but during Billick’s reign he put together the blocking scheme for offensive line and tight ends. Before Harbaugh even got to be the Ravens head coach, Marshall Yanda, Ben Grubbs, Chris Chester, and Jared Gaither were there. Jason Brown was there for a year of Harbaugh too from Billick but got signed on the first day of free agency by the Rams to be the highest paid center in the NFL. Ozzie Newsome brought in veterans like Matt Birk and Willie Anderson for one year to fill in because they could adapt quickly to what was already in place. Harbaugh was merely added because he would do the bare minimum required to win, get along with people, and not mess up on special teams since the offense and defense were already founded by those before him.

[Ray Reed]

^ this man needs a hug lmao...who hurt you bud

[diamondbull424]

10 hours ago, DoleINGout said:

No but during Billick’s reign he put together the blocking scheme for offensive line and tight ends. Before Harbaugh even got to be the Ravens head coach, Marshall Yanda, Ben Grubbs, Chris Chester, and Jared Gaither were there. Jason Brown was there for a year of Harbaugh too from Billick but got signed on the first day of free agency by the Rams to be the highest paid center in the NFL. Ozzie Newsome brought in veterans like Matt Birk and Willie Anderson for one year to fill in because they could adapt quickly to what was already in place. Harbaugh was merely added because he would do the bare minimum required to win, get along with people, and not mess up on special teams since the offense and defense were already founded by those before him.

Wrong again. The blocking concepts were completely overhauled from Billicks tenure. During his tenure there was more power blocking concepts. Under Moeller we saw more zone blocking concepts introduced into the blocking game, which made it a hybrid blocking system. Which was questioned by some because of the personnel that we had (McKinnie and Osemele for example). Yet the OL was the strongest unit we had during the SB run and thus the results cannot be argued. Directly after the SB we turned pretty exclusively to the ZBS under Juan Castillo and then Gary Kubiak. It wasn’t until 2016/2017 that we went back to looking to form more of a power blocking scheme.

So your analysis of the OL situation is wrong. The blocking concepts were actually overhauled from Billicks tenure. Watch the tape or do research, in fact, both. OL is actually my expertise and how blatantly wrong you are about that point is the only thing that galvanized me into the action of responding to you in the first place.

That and the idea that you act as though you are an expert while simultaneously proving that you are not with simple analysis that anyone who actually follows the Ravens could disprove with minimal effort.

[diamondbull424]

11 hours ago, DoleINGout said:

Brought it up multiple times in several posts that this is the third time under Harbaugh since 2010 they have been penalized. Relevant enough for you? In my last post I mentioned how another poster said this could be holding the team back. How is that irrelevant? My original comment pointed out the fact that John Harbaugh is cheater for doing this multiple times yet he will be the first from their team to complain about how referees officiate or the NFL makes its rules and chooses to intervene. For that, and as a result of just his lastest offense, I think he is a sore loser. Again, relevant.

What’s relevant is what future punishments we might see from this. Also relevant would be Harbaugh’s lack of understanding the rules (though this might not be the best example of that because of the scenario). Also relevant would be how this might impact the upcoming season with a shortage of practices.

Marvin Lewis’s impact on our SB run? Not relevant in the slightest.

[DoleINGout]

3 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

OL is actually my expertise and how blatantly wrong you are about that point is the only thing that galvanized me into the action of responding to you in the first place.

That and the idea

So what you seem to disagree with is the semantics about the offensive line scheme when actually there were  multiple offensive linemen carried over from Billick's tenure, (my general point), to Harbaugh's. As you admit, it is common knowledge for hardcore football fans on this forum that the offensive line was a huge component of the Ravens second Super Bowl. I said as much, but the other aspect is the blueprint Marvin Lewis set forth between player personnel and system. All I'm telling you is that John Harbaugh is an average head coach who hasn't earned the credit the others deserve more and his record the last five seasons without those contributors shows it. Anyone who has common sense knows that a 40-40 record over half a decade is average. Also common sense? A person being disciplined on three separate occassions for illegal OTA procedures is of questionable moral integrity, especially given how vocal that person is about the leagues officiating and enforcement of rules.

[diamondbull424]

11 hours ago, DoleINGout said:

You Ravens fans can keep Harbaugh and remain average then watch the team get worse without Ozzie Newsome in the next five years. Marvin Lewis does not get enough credit from you guys for essentially building the Ravens from its inaugural 1996 season into a Super Bowl winner by 2000. Rex Ryan is on record as saying he implemented what he learned from Lewis on his teams. A 2016 Baltimore Sun article I already linked to opens with the first sentence crediting Marvin Lewis as the man with the blueprint for their modern day defense. Rex Ryan was obviously influemsed more by his dad and had used 34 concepts but don’t be ignorant and act like he Ravens defense wasn’t mixed. Ryan actually used as much 43 in his defense as 34 with the Ravens, Jets, and Bills. It was the first Hybrid defense that dominated and still is used today. Continue to throw in variations of names with troll in it, doesn’t make your points any more valid or mine any less. As I said, last five years, 40-40.

Never said Rex Ryan was not influenced by Lewis. He was. But he was more influenced by his dad, which disturbs this notion that Lewis was the architect of the Ravens defense. Ryan was the one to incorporate the hybrid defensive look using a 34 under base alignment and many nickel looks (not many 43 base alignment looks, which was the staple of the Marvin Lewis defense).

All that said, the defense went on to be coached by Dean Pees, who was very much of a differing defensive philosophy than Ryan. He’s one of the biggest proponents/authors of the bend but don’t break defensive philosophy, which had begun to be implemented prior to the SB run. So Lewis’ “influence” on the unit was even further diluted.

Now in terms of credit, I love Marvin Lewis. He was the author of our greatest defensive unit and influenced many of those that followed (such as 2006), but his defensive influence was largely gone by the time the Ravens won the SB a decade after his departure. Also I love what he was able to do with the Bengals organization, given what he’s had to work with.

[DoleINGout]

14 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

What’s relevant is what future punishments we might see from this. Also relevant would be Harbaugh’s lack of understanding the rules (though this might not be the best example of that because of the scenario). Also relevant would be how this might impact the upcoming season with a shortage of practices.

Marvin Lewis’s impact on our SB run? Not relevant in the slightest.

There are many relevent angles to this news including the original comment I made. The Marvin Lewis discussion arose from another person taking issue with my characterizations of John Harbaugh specifically. You seem to be ignoring every relevent thing mentioned before the conversation went into an argument over Harbaugh's head coaching merit.

[DoleINGout]

5 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Never said Rex Ryan was not influenced by Lewis. He was. But he was more influenced by his dad, which disturbs this notion that Lewis was the architect of the Ravens defense. Ryan was the one to incorporate the hybrid defensive look using a 34 under base alignment and many nickel looks (not many 43 base alignment looks, which was the staple of the Marvin Lewis defense).

No, but you made a general statement as if to suggest the defense was 34 because of Ryan and not 43 because Lewis was gone. Even with Dean Pees, who I am unfortunately familiar with thanks to his time with the Patriots, the player personnel and system they were used to is ingrained from Marvin Lewis both directly and indirectly by extention of Rex Ryan. As much as Ryan was influenced by his father, he coached under Lewis on the defensive line for three seasons and merely added an attitude if anything that diffentiated itself from Lewis' system. Sure, Ryan called more 34 plays but for the most part, the 43 was involved in variations from the nickel you alluded to and the Hybrid between the 34/43. Adalius Thomas struggled to make an impact as after leaving the Ravens for example because of his role being so dynamic between end and linebacker.

 

12 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Now in terms of credit, I love Marvin Lewis. He was the author of our greatest defensive unit and influenced many of those that followed (such as 2006), but his defensive influence was largely gone by the time the Ravens won the SB a decade after his departure. Also I love what he was able to do with the Bengals organization, given what he’s had to work with.

I respect that you're at least acknowledging Marvin Lewis in contrast to the others who seemed to just ignore his impact altogether. I agree, Lewis is a phenominal defensive coach and has been really successful jumpstarting the Ravens franchise in 1996 and turning around the Bengals so quickly. I went into this in a much earlier post to illustrate just how much of an impact Lewis has had on the NFL. The crazy thing is he is still under 60 years old.

[diamondbull424]

4 minutes ago, DoleINGout said:

So what you seem to disagree with is the semantics about the offensive line scheme when actually there were  multiple offensive linemen carried over from Billick's tenure, (my general point), to Harbaugh's. As you admit, it is common knowledge for hardcore football fans on this forum that the offensive line was a huge component of the Ravens second Super Bowl. I said as much, but the other aspect is the blueprint Marvin Lewis set forth between player personnel and system. All I'm telling you is that John Harbaugh is an average head coach who hasn't earned the credit the others deserve more and his record the last five seasons without those contributors shows it. Anyone who has common sense knows that a 40-40 record over half a decade is average. Also common sense? A person being disciplined on three separate occassions for illegal OTA procedures is of questionable moral integrity, especially given how vocal that person is about the leagues officiating and enforcement of rules.

You said his influence was present in the Super Bowl run from the OL. Billick isn’t an OL specialist as an offensive mind. That’s not his expertise (though he was considered a pass game guru at one time). What’s more, none of his OL coaches were carried over, Cam Cameron (another “offensive guru” at the time) was the main architect of that offensive system that was in place, not Billick.

Also you keep mentioning players that were on Billicks team being there when Harbaugh got there... so? Are coaches supposed to have every player cut from the roster upon arrival? No. They’re not.

Anyways Cam Cameron completely overhauled the offensive philosophy upon arrival, going from the west coast passing attack that Billick ushered to the Air Coryel system that constituted a heavy dose of 5 and 7 step dropbacks that put a higher stress on the OL in pass protection, but opened up more explosive avenues in the offensive game. He pretty much had complete autonomy over the offense during his tenure and the OL was very much under his designs at that stage. He incorporated more and more of a hybrid OL blocking scheme during his tenure.

In terms of Harbaugh being an average coach? Perhaps. That’s a valid opinion, but the shelf life of coaches in the NFL aren’t great and his ability to sustain a position for as long as he has, while continuing to field competitive teams year in and year out regardless of injuries, coaches, and players... IMO says that at worst he is above average, especially when considering his post season success to this point.

All the Billick and Lewis stuff though? Completely irrelevant to this topic, which is about a coaching violation.

[DoleINGout]

4 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

All the Billick and Lewis stuff though? Completely irrelevant to this topic, which is about a coaching violation.

But you're contributing to it by harping on one detail about Brian Billick out of a whole range of other things that are only being brought up because a few Ravens fans decided to argue that point. Why? Probably just being sensitive to the Ravens.

 

8 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

You said his influence was present in the Super Bowl run from the OL. Billick isn’t an OL specialist as an offensive mind. That’s not his expertise (though he was considered a pass game guru at one time). What’s more, none of his OL coaches were carried over, Cam Cameron (another “offensive guru” at the time) was the main architect of that offensive system that was in place, not Billick.

Also you keep mentioning players that were on Billicks team being there when Harbaugh got there... so? Are coaches supposed to have every player cut from the roster upon arrival? No. They’re not.

Kirk Ferentz from 1996 to 98 helped build the offensive line that Brian Billick kept stocked until John Harbaugh too over in 2008. The players carried over to use on the offensive line were integral to wining the second Super Bowl. Again, this is just one detail of a larger point to justify to some other Ravens fans why in my original comment I stated Harbaugh is an underwhelming head coach because everything is either set up for him or was already around him.

[diamondbull424]

15 hours ago, DoleINGout said:

But you're contributing to it by harping on one detail about Brian Billick out of a whole range of other things that are only being brought up because a few Ravens fans decided to argue that point. Why? Probably just being sensitive to the Ravens.

 

Kirk Ferentz from 1996 to 98 helped build the offensive line that Brian Billick kept stocked until John Harbaugh too over in 2008. The players carried over to use on the offensive line were integral to wining the second Super Bowl. Again, this is just one detail of a larger point to justify to some other Ravens fans why in my original comment I stated Harbaugh is an underwhelming head coach because everything is either set up for him or was already around him.

Who besides Yanda??

edit: And I’ve only contributed not because of sensitivity but because of invalidity. Your points are egregiously flawed. You repeat them as one opens an empty refrigerator again and again as if it will somehow make it full of food. Yet the outcome remains the same, empty... like much of your logic.

Im harping on Billick and the OL because it’s the most egregiously flawed yet you’ve refused to admit the incorrect nature of your points. You spoke as if your account was fact and have been thoroughly found wanting, yet refuse to submit the point. Unless you want to continue to defend this angle and lose all respect you should simply submit that point as flawed.