Owens declines HoF Ceremony Invitation

[TheKillerNacho]

On 6/9/2018 at 9:21 AM, PapaShogun said:

Well, Cowboys didn't miss a beat the season after Owens left. I think Miles Austin had that career year the season after he was gone. Cowboys didn't make the playoffs in the last year Owens was there. The next season they went to the divisional round.  Eagles went back to the playoffs in 2006, the season after they missed them with Owens on the roster in 2005. Also, when Owens went to the Bengals and BIlls, it didn't do anything for them. Bengals actually made the playoffs the year after he left. 

A receiver like Owens is a luxury, but not a necessity. He doesn't play at a position like QB, OT, CB, or EDGE rusher. Also, you can't really generalize every wide receiver that has ever played in the NFL as far as their desire on every snap. Even if they aren't as talented as Owens is naturally, it doesn't mean that they aren't going hard on every play. 

You can make the argument WR is a luxury position in general, and I'd probably agree with you, but that doesn't discredit how good Owens was at playing WR.

[BleedTheClock]

On 6/7/2018 at 8:29 PM, AlexGreen#20 said:

Never said he's the only one. 

I don't even want to be sticking up for TO.

I just think don't understand why anyone would be critical of him. He had a first ballot HOF career and was denied that by a bunch of self-righteous, pretentious, geriatrics who remain bitter at the internet for destroying their 16 hour work week. 

Pretty much this.

The Hall of Fame should have nothing to do with your off-field antics, short of some type of hideous criminal history. I don't like his narcissistic attitude either, but it should have ZERO bearing on his HOF candidacy. It clearly did in this case.

 

Oh, and Marvin Harrison and Owens are not even comparable. That's a pretty ridiculous argument to make.

[lancerman]

2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Stop comparing to the hypothetical WR rankings and compare him to the 2016 class and tell me didn't get snubbed. 

Nah the problem probably was that you had Marvin Harrison who was one of the best of his era as well who already was waiting awhile and unless they felt TO absolutely needed to get in first ballot because he fit the criteria (he doesn't based off history btw) then it was better to make him wait a year and let Harrison get in. He also was competing with Brett Favre who retired with all the All Time Stats at the QB position. Ken Stabler who is an all time great QB who waited several decades and with some big classes coming up and some great QB's retiring, like Manning just did, this was going to be one of the last best shots to get him in. Pace was one of the best Tackles of the 2000's and all his peers got in and he had already waited a few years. Kevin Green was similarly one of the best linebackers of the 90's and he had also been waiting over a decade and they all knew Ray Lewis was coming up soon along with Dawkins and Urlacher. Then you had Dungy who was on the finalist list for a few years and had historical reasons to get in. 

People have this weird distorted view that the HOF is just about voting on the best players and getting them in there. No they are managing a back log of guys and WR is one of the worst positions for it because of how messed up stats are from era to era. If you're like Jerry Rice or Randy Moss where you are the clear cut best of a ten year period then they might rush you up. But sometimes you just have to wait a bit because someone else has already waited longer and their position was more in danger of hurting their chances.

 

Edit: I'd even argue that 2017 was even a more egregious year because they used that year to make up for backlogged guys like Terrell Davis, Kenny Easley and Morten Anderson who should have been in but were more reaches but they probably didn't want to keep (especially the former two) waiting two long with some big classes coming up. 

Sometimes being good enough that people don't worry that you will eventually get in works as a detriment because unless they feel a pressing need to make you first ballot, you become kind of expendable so that guys who people are worried about getting in can be rushed through.

[NFLExpert49]

1 hour ago, lancerman said:

Nah the problem probably was that you had Marvin Harrison who was one of the best of his era as well who already was waiting awhile and unless they felt TO absolutely needed to get in first ballot because he fit the criteria (he doesn't based off history btw) then it was better to make him wait a year and let Harrison get in. He also was competing with Brett Favre who retired with all the All Time Stats at the QB position. Ken Stabler who is an all time great QB who waited several decades and with some big classes coming up and some great QB's retiring, like Manning just did, this was going to be one of the last best shots to get him in. Pace was one of the best Tackles of the 2000's and all his peers got in and he had already waited a few years. Kevin Green was similarly one of the best linebackers of the 90's and he had also been waiting over a decade and they all knew Ray Lewis was coming up soon along with Dawkins and Urlacher. Then you had Dungy who was on the finalist list for a few years and had historical reasons to get in. 

People have this weird distorted view that the HOF is just about voting on the best players and getting them in there. No they are managing a back log of guys and WR is one of the worst positions for it because of how messed up stats are from era to era. If you're like Jerry Rice or Randy Moss where you are the clear cut best of a ten year period then they might rush you up. But sometimes you just have to wait a bit because someone else has already waited longer and their position was more in danger of hurting their chances.

 

Edit: I'd even argue that 2017 was even a more egregious year because they used that year to make up for backlogged guys like Terrell Davis, Kenny Easley and Morten Anderson who should have been in but were more reaches but they probably didn't want to keep (especially the former two) waiting two long with some big classes coming up. 

Sometimes being good enough that people don't worry that you will eventually get in works as a detriment because unless they feel a pressing need to make you first ballot, you become kind of expendable so that guys who people are worried about getting in can be rushed through.

Randy Moss wasn't the clear cut best of the 10 year period. 

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Randy Moss wasn't the clear cut best of the 10 year period. 

For most people he was the consensus. When people say TO "is at worst the 3rd best QB of all time" they are talking about Rice and Moss because they know Rice definitely is and most people have Moss ahead of him. You could argue it, but Moss is generally viewed as the superior QB to most people who watched both. I watched the entire career of both, TO looked like a really elite high level WR, Moss was the Brown/Gronk/Taylor of the WR position. He just looked that much better than everyone else.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

6 hours ago, TheKillerNacho said:

You can make the argument WR is a luxury position in general, and I'd probably agree with you, but that doesn't discredit how good Owens was at playing WR.

Well, a good WR is a luxury. You have to pass to wide receivers at some point, so I don't think the position in itself is a luxury. Just like a kicker, it has a purpose in the game. My post regarding Owens wasn't to discredit how good he was at playing the position. 

[Supersuavesky]

This thread has been ridiculous.

 

People are honestly comparing Marvin Harrison to Terrell Owens.

[Jetzger]

I mean TO is kind of a prick yeah, but I'm still amazed at how many people are siding with the HOF here.  

 

To everyone citing the HOF's historical bias against WRs, that isn't why he had to wait.  You had voters throughout his years of waiting saying they would NEVER vote for him because of his perceived locker room antics, as if they consider themselves a bunch of moral gatekeepers instead of just doing their jobs and voting for the best football players.

Instead of congratulating him when he finally got in there was a bunch of back handed compliments and you had people like Jason Whitlock taking to twitter and basically saying "there we put you in and we expect you to act graciously to us for allowing you into our club".  

The voters make it about themselves and their agendas every year and this was the most egregious case yet.  I'm glad someone is finally giving them the metaphorical finger.  The only thing that would be better is if TO actually attended the ceremony and just spent his entire speech calling out all the voters for their self-importance.

[lancerman]

A history of WR's going into the Hall of Fame prior to this class.

Going backwards Harrison waited 3 years. When he retired he was also all decade and right up near TO in most stats and likely would have matched or passed him in the other ones if he played as many years as him. 

Cris Carter when he retired was 2 in receptions and TD's behind Rice and 4 in yards. He was All Decade for the 90's. He waited 6 years. 

Before him, Tim Brown waited 6 years. He was similarily a pretty easy Hall of Fame pick.

Rice then went in first year of eligibility

Art Monk went in after waiting 8 years. 

Michael Irvin waited 3 years. He had 3 Super Bowls

James Lofton waited 5 years

Stallworth waited over 15 years as did Lynn Swann. 

Tommy McDonald waited 30 years. 

Charlie Joiner waited 5 years

Steve Largen went in 1st ballot. He retired with the record for 6 all time stats and when he retired had a clear argument for GOAT. 

Biletnikoff waited 5 years

Don Maynard waited over 10 and he retired with some pretty good all time records.

Charley Taylor waited 2 years when he got inducted in 1984. So I guess he's your closest. He was the NFL all time receptions leader when he retired. He also retired before Jerry Rice was a rookie. So that's basically where we are at with that.

Before him Warfield who retired as the All Decade for the 70's and is still the leader in yards per reception over 100 yards got in first ballot.

Then in 1973 Raymond Berry went in first ballot. I already discussed him. He led the league in receptions in TD's all time and was the greatest of the immediate pre Super Bowl era. 

Tom Fears waited 8 years

That covers us to the merger. 

 

Cry me a river that TO waited 2 years.

[NFLExpert49]

4 hours ago, lancerman said:

For most people he was the consensus. When people say TO "is at worst the 3rd best QB of all time" they are talking about Rice and Moss because they know Rice definitely is and most people have Moss ahead of him. You could argue it, but Moss is generally viewed as the superior QB to most people who watched both. I watched the entire career of both, TO looked like a really elite high level WR, Moss was the Brown/Gronk/Taylor of the WR position. He just looked that much better than everyone else.

But the point is, it's not clear cut. Not like Jerry Rice was.

If it were clear cut, Owens wouldn't have had more First Team AP All Pro selections (5 to 4). He wouldn't have had nearly 700 more yards while playing in only 1 more game (and really, he played in fewer if you look at how little he played in the first half of his rookie season). Moss only had 3 more receiving touchdowns, and they're tied in rushing + receiving touchdowns. 

Jerry Rice had 10 first team AP All Pro selections and nobody was anywhere near him in the numbers. There certainly wasn't somebody who, over the span of 10, 12 years, was right there with him. 

Play-wise, the only thing Moss really had on Owens was the jump ball dominance. He tracked the ball and timed it to where the coverage didn't matter.

But Owens had just as big an advantage in the run after catch department. Owens, more than anyone ever, was the definition of "can score from anywhere on the field." 

 

[lancerman]

3 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

But the point is, it's not clear cut. Not like Jerry Rice was.

If it were clear cut, Owens wouldn't have had more First Team AP All Pro selections (5 to 4). He wouldn't have had nearly 700 more yards while playing in only 1 more game (and really, he played in fewer if you look at how little he played in the first half of his rookie season). Moss only had 3 more receiving touchdowns, and they're tied in rushing + receiving touchdowns. 

Jerry Rice had 10 first team AP All Pro selections and nobody was anywhere near him in the numbers. There certainly wasn't somebody who, over the span of 10, 12 years, was right there with him. 

Play-wise, the only thing Moss really had on Owens was the jump ball dominance. He tracked the ball and timed it to where the coverage didn't matter.

But Owens had just as big an advantage in the run after catch department. Owens, more than anyone ever, was the definition of "can score from anywhere on the field." 

 

In yet if you ask most people they will say Moss was better. I can't imagine anyone who watched both thinking TO was the superior WR. 

And again, every WR who went first ballot was arguably the GOAT at the time or the 2nd best to the reigning GOAT. None of them were in TO's position where you would say he was number 3 (and that's really only going by stats, which for that position inflate each year). 

And going further I just went through every WR elected in the Hall of Fame since the merger. Aside from the first ballot guys only Irvin who had 3 Super Bowls (TO has none) and Taylor who was the All Time leader in receptions (again TO leads in no All Time Stats) waited as much or less time than TO. So again it's not a big deal that TO waited two years. It's actually probably appropriate. 

It just really isn't the big deal that people are making it out to be, even if you don't like the reasons they gave. 

[pwny]

3 hours ago, Supersuavesky said:

This thread has been ridiculous.

 

People are honestly comparing Marvin Harrison to Terrell Owens.

They both came into the league in 1996. Harrison retired after the 2008 season. Through that point, here's their stats:

951 receptions vs 1102 receptions

14122 yards vs 14588 yards

139 TDs vs 128 TDs

 

Here's their career accolades:

0 Super Bowl Wins vs  1 Super Bowl win

6 Pro Bowls vs 8 Pro Bowls

5 All Pros vs 8 All Pros

All Decade Second Team vs All Decade First Team

0 times reception leader vs 2 time receptions leader

0 time yardage leader vs 2 time yardage leader

3 time TD leader vs 1 time TD leader

 

If you can't be honest and admit that they have similar career accolades, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[NFLExpert49]

21 minutes ago, lancerman said:

In yet if you ask most people they will say Moss was better. I can't imagine anyone who watched both thinking TO was the superior WR. 

And again, every WR who went first ballot was arguably the GOAT at the time or the 2nd best to the reigning GOAT. None of them were in TO's position where you would say he was number 3 (and that's really only going by stats, which for that position inflate each year). 

And going further I just went through every WR elected in the Hall of Fame since the merger. Aside from the first ballot guys only Irvin who had 3 Super Bowls (TO has none) and Taylor who was the All Time leader in receptions (again TO leads in no All Time Stats) waited as much or less time than TO. So again it's not a big deal that TO waited two years. It's actually probably appropriate. 

It just really isn't the big deal that people are making it out to be, even if you don't like the reasons they gave. 

There are plenty of people who would pick Owens. If you were to do a poll between Owens and Moss, he would get 35-40% of the votes. 

There's no way anybody but homers vote for anyone other than Jerry Rice as #1 during his era. Maybe you get a few Sterling Sharpe fans. There's a silly narrative that has been around for a while that if Sharpe didn't get hurt, he could've been greater than Rice. They don't seem to understand that Sharpe was about to turn 30 and would need another 14000+ yards and 130+ TDs in his 30s to get to Rice's numbers. 

Rice would get 90% or so of the votes as the best of his era. 

[Small Town Values]

41 minutes ago, iPwn said:

5 All Pros (First Team) vs 8 All Pros (3 First Team / 5 Second Team) 

Other than changing the above stat to favour Owens, I agree. People really don't need to dump on Harrison to make a case for TO. Although I believe TO was the better player, it's ridiculous to deny that Marvin Harrison was one of the all-time greats.  

3 receivers from that era should've been 1st ballot, & they are TO, Moss, & Marvin. The hall dropped the ball twice.

However, the voters vendetta against TO is the most blatantly obvious abuse of voting power I've seen. To have voters coming out saying if they had known TO would decline the invitation, they'd have left him out, is an absolute joke. 

[lancerman]

14 minutes ago, Marc MacGyver said:

Other than changing the above stat to favour Owens, I agree. People really don't need to dump on Harrison to make a case for TO. Although I believe TO was the better player, it's ridiculous to deny that Marvin Harrison was one of the all-time greats.  

3 receivers from that era should've been 1st ballot, & they are TO, Moss, & Marvin. The hall dropped the ball twice.

However, the voters vendetta against TO is the most blatantly obvious abuse of voting power I've seen. To have voters coming out saying if they had known TO would decline the invitation, they'd have left him out, is an absolute joke. 

Exactly one voter who did in fact vote for TO said it