2018 Draft Eligible OL Thread (OT, OG, C)

[Da_Ducktator]

3 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

Well, you are dead wrong on Davenport, he has a real shot at the top 10 as he is very raw and has an upside that could easily make him an All Pro, never getting past top 15 and likely will be in the top 12 picks.

As for Cappa, he will have to move inside as will Branden Smith, they both have short arms and that always signals a move inside.

I made this post over a month ago... Have you just been sitting on this for nearly two months?

And nothing I said was about where they will be drafted. I have known for a long time Davenport will go high. I just think he is raw and doesn't bring much more than a power rush element at this point. Works well against the tackle dummy's that are in C-USA. Not going to work against Trent Williams' of the world.

I always had Cappa as a tweener and Braden Smith (who I never mentioned at all in my post so God only knows why you even brought him up) I have had strictly as an OG.

[Tugboat]

5 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

Sorry, but you are way off about Daniels, Daniels is one of the finest OC prospects to come down the pipe in awhile, but Price, before his injury, was ranked #2 and is likely a 2nd rounder with his injury, as OC do not go round 1, all that often. No matter what you believe, Price is not a better prospect than Daniels?

Sorry, but for an OLman, the punch is a crucial weapon and if your arms are short, it can impact a prospect significantly, if his opponent can keep the OLman's arms away from the defenders body. That is OL play 101. Of course, many short armed OLmen who have been moved inside because of it, do manage to adjust and go on to have excellent careers, but many also fail to be able to compensate.

I once saw an ALL Pro OC give a lesson a couple of Combine ago and he showed the OL prospects something that is common in the NFL and it really shocked both the prospects and me, because it is a technique they will have to learn to survive at the next level. He used his right hand to punch the defender and before the defender could recover, he grabbed the defenders left wrist as it was coming out of his stance, basically negating the defender as completely useless for a second or 2, so do not tell me short arms are not significant on the OL.

For OT's, it is totally significant, because if a DLman ever gets his hands on the OT or any of the OL for that matter, they will destroy his assignment by throwing him aside and dominating their opponents.

I'm kinda curious why you're so infatuated with length inside, while simultaneously acknowledging that it makes the most sense for shorter-armed linemen to move inside.

On the edge, that wingspan and overall length can be absolutely crucial to success.  That much is very evident.

Inside though...that's where length tends to be mitigated more effectively.  At times, a more compact frame can even be advantageous in the muck of those interior trenches.  There isn't always very much room to operate.  A more compact frame may not give a guy that same reach on an initial punch, but if your punch isn't connecting until it's stressing the absolute outer reaches of your arm length...it's not going to be be a powerful/effective punch anyway.  And that more compact frame is going to give an inside guy less troubles with getting long limbs entangled with coworkers.  It's going to give them a lower center of gravity to maintain leverage against inside rushers trying to get underneath and push them back.  And a shorter/more compact interior line is going to give a QB less of a palisade to try to see/throw over as well, which is typically desirable...as long as the interior guys can keep defenders' arms down and out of the way.

I get the importance of length outside.  But inside...unless it's like, some freaky TRex stuff going on, i really don't see the problem.  A ton of the best IOL guys have a significant lack of length in their build.  Those guys can survive there plenty fine.  Gimme strength and an anchor over an extra inch of arm length.

[IDOG_det]

11 hours ago, Iamcanadian said:

Sorry, but you are way off about Daniels, Daniels is one of the finest OC prospects to come down the pipe in awhile, but Price, before his injury, was ranked #2 and is likely a 2nd rounder with his injury, as OC do not go round 1, all that often. No matter what you believe, Price is not a better prospect than Daniels?

Sorry, but for an OLman, the punch is a crucial weapon and if your arms are short, it can impact a prospect significantly, if his opponent can keep the OLman's arms away from the defenders body. That is OL play 101. Of course, many short armed OLmen who have been moved inside because of it, do manage to adjust and go on to have excellent careers, but many also fail to be able to compensate.

I once saw an ALL Pro OC give a lesson a couple of Combine ago and he showed the OL prospects something that is common in the NFL and it really shocked both the prospects and me, because it is a technique they will have to learn to survive at the next level. He used his right hand to punch the defender and before the defender could recover, he grabbed the defenders left wrist as it was coming out of his stance, basically negating the defender as completely useless for a second or 2, so do not tell me short arms are not significant on the OL.

For OT's, it is totally significant, because if a DLman ever gets his hands on the OT or any of the OL for that matter, they will destroy his assignment by throwing him aside and dominating their opponents.

This is a really bad look for you. You're telling me my opinion can't be right because you think your opinion is fact. Then you're trying to reference an all-pro center as if it makes what you're saying stronger when it has nothing to do with the conversation. What he was teaching can be done equally well by a short armed or long armed OL. You were shocked that an all-pro center taught them about independent hand usage? That's not quite "OL 101" but it's not far from it...you want me to share a story about one of the best centers to ever live who has chosen to personally train Billy Price but did not choose to personally train James Daniels? Or would you not care to hear about that because it uses your same logic but goes against your opinion that you think can't possibly be wrong?

A "punch" is crucial, sure, but the idea that arm length equates to having an effective punch is incredibly lazy and wrong. A good "punch" isn't created by having long arms. A good "punch" is created by positioning the hands and elbow properly, maintaining proper posture, engaging the right muscles to create the ideal level of force, timing your hands properly, and varying the ways in which you use your hands. Pretending that long arms = good "punch" is like a cavemans approach to OL. And then following that up by saying that is "OL 101" is some high grade irony.

I don't know why you're talking about "moving inside", "failing to adjust", "failing to compensate"...we're talking about Billy Price. He's already proven himself inside. There is no "moving", "adjusting", or "compensating". He's already done that.

Also........"if a DLman ever gets his hands on the OT or any of the OL for that matter, they will destroy his assignment by throwing him aside and dominating their opponents."...........what?

Have you ever actually watched an offensive lineman before? Do you know they aren't 5 year old children going against grown men? Do you know that they're grown men going against grown men? An OL can be fine if a DL gets his hands on him, it's fine if you actually know how to play the position. Billy Price is a good example of this! Billy Price actually knows how to play! You should go watch him completely stone wall defensive lineman with his hand usage when they get their hands on him. Your mind will be blown. He isn't thrown aside like a child, he uses his big boy strength and gets his little person arms right up in there and uses the techniques that all-pro centers teach to actually win the rep.

And you gotta stop caring about what round these guys might get drafted.  You have no idea where they will get drafted. The NFL isn't very good at evaluating OL so you shouldn't really care anyway. Billy Price could go undrafted, I don't care. It doesn't change my opinion that his talent says he should go in the top half of the 1st.

[Iamcanadian]

10 hours ago, Da_Ducktator said:

I made this post over a month ago... Have you just been sitting on this for nearly two months?

And nothing I said was about where they will be drafted. I have known for a long time Davenport will go high. I just think he is raw and doesn't bring much more than a power rush element at this point. Works well against the tackle dummy's that are in C-USA. Not going to work against Trent Williams' of the world.

I always had Cappa as a tweener and Braden Smith (who I never mentioned at all in my post so God only knows why you even brought him up) I have had strictly as an OG.

I needed to see him at the Combine to fix my impression of him and what he can become. He does not have a huge football background and I simply believe his upside is extremely high. He may have learned against tackle dunneys, but a DL coach will take him under his wing and bring out the real talent this guy possesses. Of course, that is just my opinion. 

I wasn't really replying to your post alone and another posted mentioned Smith in the same breath, so I killed 2 birds with one stone.

[Iamcanadian]

3 hours ago, IDOG_det said:

This is a really bad look for you. You're telling me my opinion can't be right because you think your opinion is fact. Then you're trying to reference an all-pro center as if it makes what you're saying stronger when it has nothing to do with the conversation. What he was teaching can be done equally well by a short armed or long armed OL. You were shocked that an all-pro center taught them about independent hand usage? That's not quite "OL 101" but it's not far from it...you want me to share a story about one of the best centers to ever live who has chosen to personally train Billy Price but did not choose to personally train James Daniels? Or would you not care to hear about that because it uses your same logic but goes against your opinion that you think can't possibly be wrong?

A "punch" is crucial, sure, but the idea that arm length equates to having an effective punch is incredibly lazy and wrong. A good "punch" isn't created by having long arms. A good "punch" is created by positioning the hands and elbow properly, maintaining proper posture, engaging the right muscles to create the ideal level of force, timing your hands properly, and varying the ways in which you use your hands. Pretending that long arms = good "punch" is like a cavemans approach to OL. And then following that up by saying that is "OL 101" is some high grade irony.

I don't know why you're talking about "moving inside", "failing to adjust", "failing to compensate"...we're talking about Billy Price. He's already proven himself inside. There is no "moving", "adjusting", or "compensating". He's already done that.

Also........"if a DLman ever gets his hands on the OT or any of the OL for that matter, they will destroy his assignment by throwing him aside and dominating their opponents."...........what?

Have you ever actually watched an offensive lineman before? Do you know they aren't 5 year old children going against grown men? Do you know that they're grown men going against grown men? An OL can be fine if a DL gets his hands on him, it's fine if you actually know how to play the position. Billy Price is a good example of this! Billy Price actually knows how to play! You should go watch him completely stone wall defensive lineman with his hand usage when they get their hands on him. Your mind will be blown. He isn't thrown aside like a child, he uses his big boy strength and gets his little person arms right up in there and uses the techniques that all-pro centers teach to actually win the rep.

And you gotta stop caring about what round these guys might get drafted.  You have no idea where they will get drafted. The NFL isn't very good at evaluating OL so you shouldn't really care anyway. Billy Price could go undrafted, I don't care. It doesn't change my opinion that his talent says he should go in the top half of the 1st.

Hey, if you want to believe in Price, go for it, but as a prospect, Daniels is the superior OC, what they will become as pros is anybody's guess. It isn't only my opinion, it is the opinion of Mayock and EVERY scout on NFL.com. I do my homework!!!

How long have you been a draftrnik, because the term, 'if he can get his hands on you, it's over,' has been around  for decades to describe Olmen and DLmen. It is ditto if the OLmen can get their hands on the defender as well. These are powerful men and if they get leverage, it is all over, period!

As for a punch, it is a NFL linemen responsibility to use his long arms to hold an opponent 'at arm's length' and it is extremely difficult to deliver a punch if your hand cannot reach an opponents body, because your arms are too short. Interior OLmen has developed techniques for countering this sizable disadvantage, but it still has its effects and for OT's, it is almost impossible to compensate for short arms in their one on one battles.

It is one thing to have a solid opinion on a prospect, it is quite another to believe in you opinion against expert advise and say, everybody is wrong and you are right. I have said, I believe so and so could turn out to be a solid pro against the advice of say a Mayock, but to claim his is the far better prospect is a whole different story???

Price is a solid prospect, a first round talent in this year's draft, nobody is denying it, he has an injury which will not help his draft stock and may drop him to round 2 for some lucky team, but Daniels I would rate as one of the finest OC prospects to come down the pipe, in quite a while and in my opinion and the opinion of Mayock and all the draft analysts on NFL.com., he is a better prospect than Price, so live with it!!!  

[Duluther]

Can someone tell me where they expect the following players to go? I've seen power rankings, but none yet are very similar and I really want to know what it'd take to get these guys.

 

Mike McGlinchey, PSU

James Daniels, Iowa

Chukwuma Okorafor, Western Michgian

Billy Price, OSU

[Iamcanadian]

1 hour ago, Duluther said:

Can someone tell me where they expect the following players to go? I've seen power rankings, but none yet are very similar and I really want to know what it'd take to get these guys.

 

Mike McGlinchey, PSU - Early second although there are so few solid LT prospects, he could go late round 1 to a LT desperate team.

James Daniels, Iowa - 20 to 25, he is the best OC in the draft, but OC's are not in demand in round 1 which will cause him to drop a bit.

Chukwuma Okorafor, Western Michgian - Round 4 or 5, not a very impressive Combine.

Billy Price, OSU - Likely early to mid round 2, that is usually the destination for injured 1st round talents.

I hope this helps!!!

[FuzzyTiger]

The argument between Price and Daniels is really more about what kind of center you want.  Daniels the better mover and at 2nd level.  Price the stronger better drive blocker. I personally like Price better because I think he offers a better anchor and is a better prospect at G if a team needs him to fill in there.

[flgatorsandjags]

Calling it now, Ragnow will be the best olineman along with Nelson.  Ragnow is a future All Pro

[Duluther]

1 hour ago, Iamcanadian said:

I hope this helps!!!

Yes, thank you for your input!

[jrry32]

I still think the Orlando Brown Jr. hate is stupid. Watch the UGA game. He lost one rep as a pass blocker that entire game. He's going to need to improve his body and his kick-step in the NFL. Even if he does that, it's possible he'll need some help against the elite speed guys, but he's a force as a run blocker and absolutely stonewalls guys when he gets his hands on them. If you can beat him with speed, you can get a sack, but you aren't going to go through him.

[IDOG_det]

5 hours ago, jrry32 said:

I still think the Orlando Brown Jr. hate is stupid. Watch the UGA game. He lost one rep as a pass blocker that entire game. He's going to need to improve his body and his kick-step in the NFL. Even if he does that, it's possible he'll need some help against the elite speed guys, but he's a force as a run blocker and absolutely stonewalls guys when he gets his hands on them. If you can beat him with speed, you can get a sack, but you aren't going to go through him.

He needs time to get his body right. He was 400+ as a high school kid, it's hard to maintain strength and stop that kind of weight. A smart team would sit him year one (maybe use him in jumbo packages) and have him first work on losing some the excess fat he still has, then from that point work on becoming stronger and developing his technique. He has all the potential in the world to be a great player, but in the hands of the less competent organizations he might struggle.

[Danand]

6 hours ago, jrry32 said:

I still think the Orlando Brown Jr. hate is stupid. Watch the UGA game. He lost one rep as a pass blocker that entire game. He's going to need to improve his body and his kick-step in the NFL. Even if he does that, it's possible he'll need some help against the elite speed guys, but he's a force as a run blocker and absolutely stonewalls guys when he gets his hands on them. If you can beat him with speed, you can get a sack, but you aren't going to go through him.

I think people should ask themselves, that if he is so so so bad an athlete. Then how did he put together the tape he did?

[Ozzy]

7 hours ago, jrry32 said:

I still think the Orlando Brown Jr. hate is stupid. Watch the UGA game. He lost one rep as a pass blocker that entire game. He's going to need to improve his body and his kick-step in the NFL. Even if he does that, it's possible he'll need some help against the elite speed guys, but he's a force as a run blocker and absolutely stonewalls guys when he gets his hands on them. If you can beat him with speed, you can get a sack, but you aren't going to go through him.

Agree, and he said in an interview he was 450 pounds in 8th grade.  But I agree on film he looks good, on film I feel he is best OT in the draft, and if he did not have the combine he had he probably would be the 1st OT taken.  Like honestly if he is this poor of an athlete and yet was that successful on the field, think what he could be if he put in some more work on his body.    Also sure after all the negative talk about him now, that could provide some motivation for him moving forward.  

 

He gave up zero sacks last year which says something, especially when you play Ohio State, Georgia, Texas, TCU, WV,  Oklahoma State, Kansas State and Iowa State during the season.  Sure might not be as elite as one thought after this showing, but still the kid outside of the combine is a very impressive talent still.  Started 13 games as a RS FR, 14 as a RS SOPH and 14 as a RS JR at a elite program which is very pass heavy obviously.  

[CWood21]

1 hour ago, IDOG_det said:

He needs time to get his body right. He was 400+ as a high school kid, it's hard to maintain strength and stop that kind of weight. A smart team would sit him year one (maybe use him in jumbo packages) and have him first work on losing some the excess fat he still has, then from that point work on becoming stronger and developing his technique. He has all the potential in the world to be a great player, but in the hands of the less competent organizations he might struggle.

You don't draft someone early if you have no intention of playing him, sans QBs.  If you're drafting Orlando Brown, you're taking him with the intention of playing him.  It might not be at LT, but you'll slot in him in at RT and maybe give him some help in the form of a TE chipping as he's going out.