Forge Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, TheVillain112 said: He's still learning the LB position, so learning a new position might not be that bad considering there's going to be a learning curve for him regardless. Also, I've seen guys like Ahmad Brooks who played LB in college transition well to a 3-4 OLB role. Ahmad Brooks was more successful as a pass rusher in SF than he was as a MLB in Cincy. That said I'm starting him out as an off the ball LB... I think I would too, but its intriguing, I think. Like, if I'm the 49ers, with a gaping hole at both SAM linebacker and on the edge, there's something that I kind of dig about putting him at SAM on early downs, but keeping him on the field on passing downs by putting him on the edge and telling him, "see that dude who is going to throw the football? Go hit that guy". I think a pass rusher, this would take a lot of the necessary "instincts" out of the edge play right off. This is similar to what the 49ers did with Aldon his rookie year. He didn't have to worry about all the other stuff...just came in on nearly guaranteed passing downs and was told to attack (granted, Smith was a pretty polished pass rusher coming out of college with a bevy of moves and hand checks and the like, but still). Given that I don't love the pass rushers in this class as a whole, and I don't view the 49ers as a playoff contender this year, I don't mind trying to take a year, getting him experience in the role and working with him from a coaching standpoint to really try and make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 28 minutes ago, Broncofan said: EDIT: @jebrick's Shazier comp is an even simpler answer....although I think Shazier had better instincts coming out of college than Edmunds, but this was probably his biggest weakness (and being thought of as a bit undersized). My point exactly. Shazier played like a player with 4.5 speed because he took false steps. But his speed and quickness made up for a lot of it. If Shazier did not have to decide or decided correctly he looked like he was shot out of a cannon. Shazier was smart and was a film junkie. He was calling all the plays and adjustments last year. Edmunds will be like Shazier as a rookie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reamer Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Great conversation going on here. I don't see why we have to pigeonhole Edmunds to EDGE or LB, though. He could play in the Hightower role, where he rotates between inside, outside, and on the line responsibilities, depending on matchups and defensive calls. They're both huge for linebackers, with above average speed. Edmunds looks more fluid in coverage, while Hightower has more power as a blitzer (and more refined technique), but I could see them both filling multiple roles. As for Sweat, he would excel in a Clowney or Mercilus role, rushing against the center and moving around the front.. Don't make him line up at DE all game, imo. Stand him up, move him all around the formation, let him loop and stunt, and most important, have him blitz from a two-point stance. Let him attack more. He's a phenomenal athlete, but as a pure pass rusher he needs refinement: he's often the last person off the ball (although that was addressed above, and kind of makes sense), and he relies on bull rushes more than good hand work and counters. I do like him against the run, though. He's stouter than his frame indicates. I'd love to see him just unleashed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Edmunds disappears too often for my liking. He's overrated in my eyes and not someone I'd be pounding the table hard for in the 1st round. He's got poor technique and is easily washed away in power run schemes. His initial reaction time is too slow and he's getting eaten by down blocks before he diagnoses what the hell is going on. I know he's young and could develop into a great player, but I'm not enamored with him playing LB'er and I'm sure as hell not enamored with him playing on the DL acting as a pass rusher. I get the upside the kid has, but I don't see what makes him and Malik Jefferson much different. I'm taking Edmunds over Jefferson because he is more consistent and has a higher upside and motor, but both are not very good in traditional linebacker reads and roles. I need a model of consistency out of my ILB's. They don't need to be freaks, but they can't ever be waiting for the action to come to them. Both of these guys do that and it results in them getting washed out on a consistent basis. Out of all of the linebackers that could play MLB, I think Rashaan Evans has the best chance to become elite there. He's violent as can be, fast, and actually plays the game fast. There's no slow playing to his game. Roquan Smith is great, but a slow play linebacker that needs to be on the weak side. BTW, slow play doesn't mean he's slow...it means he is at his best scraping and waiting for the play to develop before attacking. He can't attack like Rashaan because he can't get off blocks. Leighton Vander Esch is the perfect spread linebacker. He's great in pass coverage, but still very raw in making reads and shedding blocks. He also has a weak frame and while he attacks hard, he's usually met with violence that drives him off the spot. Rashaan Evans seems like the best pure ILB whereas the other guys fit elsewhere (SLB: Edmunds/Vander-Esch) (WLB: Smith) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOSteelers56 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 1 hour ago, BleedTheClock said: Out of all of the linebackers that could play MLB, I think Rashaan Evans has the best chance to become elite there. He's violent as can be, fast, and actually plays the game fast. There's no slow playing to his game His poor showing this offseason doesn't scare you? He's giving me flashbacks of Jarvis Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 18 hours ago, Rich7sena said: These are vastly different players than Key. At 240 lbs., Key needed to test well. It's similar to a 5'10" receiver running a 4.7 40 and a 7.3 second 3-cone. Testing numbers combined with player density have proven to predict NFL success, or at least risk, relatively well. Was not totally comparing them to Key, but there are other pass rushers who do not do great things in the 40 yet still can be successful. Lawrence was 250 at the combine, not that far off of Key's weight, sure Lawrence was better at the point of attack and has since gotten bigger in the NFL for that 4/3 DE spot but still. And here are some other guys, some who were also 250+ or around there who did not have great 40 times. Chandler Jones 4.87 Frank Clark 4.79 Oliver Vernon 4.80 Melvin Ingram 4.87 Aldon Smith 4.78 Noah Spence 4.80 Brian Cushing 4.74 Spence was considered a super quick and athletic pass rusher last season, and he did not have a great 40 time either. And Melvin Ingram's combine 40 would suggest he could struggle at OLB in a 4/3 yet that is not exactly the case. Same with Chandler Jones but he is more of a 4/3 DE when it comes right down to it. The one guy who is a concern comparison would be Tim Williams from last year. Projected 1st rounder before the season, had a better year than Key did this past season but still dropped big time in the draft after workouts and limited versatility as a pass rusher, who benefited a ton from the talent around him. Even had some decent times in the 40 at the combine, still fell to a 3rd round pick. Be curious if Key takes a similar fall. Still watching Key's sophomore tape, the kid is a speed demon who was a terror out there as a pass rusher almost in every game. Really did disappoint this past year, but clearly is not great in terms of his nutrition or his overall workout routine. If he fails in the NFL it will be a work ethic and desire issue, not a 40 time issue I feel. Sure the 40 time could be related to his work ethic but a slower 40 is not the be all and end all. 18 hours ago, Iamcanadian said: Unfortunately, his pro day was worse! It is easy to list the exceptions to the rule, but for every exception you list, I can list a thousand Keys' types who were complete flops.. Teams have a standard by which they judge players, sure, if your intangibles are off the charts, you might get drafted later after all the great athletes are chosen, but your odds of making it are numerically miniscule! The rare guy gets by with heart and determination, but they are far and few between. Key no only does not seem to have great athletic ability, his has numerous off the field red flags, making his journey seem even less likely to succeed. I do not know what went wrong with him, but I am not wasting a draft pick higher than round 7 on the guy! Would be curious what he said to the NFL teams about last Spring and Summer. I do not believe just because a pass rusher might have a bad 40 that totally rules him out as being a good player. Now if you are talking WR or more importantly CB/S, that is a little bit different potentially. Sure is great to have super fast rush ends, but not all 4.6 rush ends turn out either, just like not all 4.8 edges are terrible athletes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 54 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said: His poor showing this offseason doesn't scare you? He's giving me flashbacks of Jarvis Jones. Jarvis Jones to me his medical stuff really hurt him, he had an awful medical history and injury history that was quite major. Still was production those last two years in college though but agreed terrible workouts. It is odd Evan's has not ran a 40, because on tape he looks like easily one of the fastest linebackers in the draft potentially. Kid can really run so it is odd he is not and some teams are quite upset he has not. Evans also has injuries on an off almost his entire college career as well which is a concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reamer Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 20 minutes ago, Ozzy said: Was not totally comparing them to Key, but there are other pass rushers who do not do great things in the 40 yet still can be successful. Lawrence was 250 at the combine, not that far off of Key's weight, sure Lawrence was better at the point of attack and has since gotten bigger in the NFL for that 4/3 DE spot but still. And here are some other guys, some who were also 250+ or around there who did not have great 40 times. Chandler Jones 4.87 Frank Clark 4.79 Oliver Vernon 4.80 Melvin Ingram 4.87 Aldon Smith 4.78 Noah Spence 4.80 Brian Cushing 4.74 Spence was considered a super quick and athletic pass rusher last season, and he did not have a great 40 time either. And Melvin Ingram's combine 40 would suggest he could struggle at OLB in a 4/3 yet that is not exactly the case. Same with Chandler Jones but he is more of a 4/3 DE when it comes right down to it. The one guy who is a concern comparison would be Tim Williams from last year. Projected 1st rounder before the season, had a better year than Key did this past season but still dropped big time in the draft after workouts and limited versatility as a pass rusher, who benefited a ton from the talent around him. Even had some decent times in the 40 at the combine, still fell to a 3rd round pick. Be curious if Key takes a similar fall. Still watching Key's sophomore tape, the kid is a speed demon who was a terror out there as a pass rusher almost in every game. Really did disappoint this past year, but clearly is not great in terms of his nutrition or his overall workout routine. If he fails in the NFL it will be a work ethic and desire issue, not a 40 time issue I feel. Sure the 40 time could be related to his work ethic but a slower 40 is not the be all and end all. Would be curious what he said to the NFL teams about last Spring and Summer. I do not believe just because a pass rusher might have a bad 40 that totally rules him out as being a good player. Now if you are talking WR or more importantly CB/S, that is a little bit different potentially. Sure is great to have super fast rush ends, but not all 4.6 rush ends turn out either, just like not all 4.8 edges are terrible athletes. While you're not wrong that testing isn't the be all, end all, your choices aren't very convincing to me. You listed mostly a bunch of explosive guys who were significantly heavier. Frank Clark was over 270 pounds, and had elite explosion and agility numbers (and if you count pro day, he got into the 4.6s). Chandler Jones was also nearly 270, and he also had great marks for his jumps and 3-cone. Aldon Smith was coming off a broken leg, and still put up better times at 25+ more pounds. Cushing doesn't even play the same position. Vernon and Ingram win with great leverage and short area burst. All of them show more strength and better hands, though. Key is clearly not on their level as athletes, and his recent tape is really mediocre. Tough to convince an NFL GM to take a shot on Key with the combination of off field issues and now relatively poor athleticism given his size. If he were 265 with the same numbers, I don't think anyone would bat an eye. At such a low weight, however, his speed and explosion are surprisingly low. I wouldn't take a shot on him, personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 24 minutes ago, Ozzy said: Jarvis Jones to me his medical stuff really hurt him, he had an awful medical history and injury history that was quite major. Still was production those last two years in college though but agreed terrible workouts. It is odd Evan's has not ran a 40, because on tape he looks like easily one of the fastest linebackers in the draft potentially. Kid can really run so it is odd he is not and some teams are quite upset he has not. Evans also has injuries on an off almost his entire college career as well which is a concern. The injuries esp to the lower body are killers to LB’s. It’s such a meat grinder position once they start recurring it’s worrisome. Evans missing time in 2016 and then more in 2017 with groin injuries does make me worry he’s wearing down. It’s just a matter of when. If you are lucky it’s in your late 20’s / 30 for most. If you are an athletic freak like Urlacher or Lewis or Kuechly or Willis you can decline from wear and tear or injury recovery at less than 100 percent and still be elite. If you aren’t elite athletically though the drop happens quickly. That’s what is happening to Brandon Marshall (LB not WR lol). That’s my main issue with Evans. Not knowing how athletic he is in NFL terms with his injury history at that position is a major flag to take him even early Day 2 esp given the devaluation of ILB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, reamer said: While you're not wrong that testing isn't the be all, end all, your choices aren't very convincing to me. You listed mostly a bunch of explosive guys who were significantly heavier. Frank Clark was over 270 pounds, and had elite explosion and agility numbers (and if you count pro day, he got into the 4.6s). Chandler Jones was also nearly 270, and he also had great marks for his jumps and 3-cone. Aldon Smith was coming off a broken leg, and still put up better times at 25+ more pounds. Cushing doesn't even play the same position. Vernon and Ingram win with great leverage and short area burst. All of them show more strength and better hands, though. Key is clearly not on their level as athletes, and his recent tape is really mediocre. Tough to convince an NFL GM to take a shot on Key with the combination of off field issues and now relatively poor athleticism given his size. If he were 265 with the same numbers, I don't think anyone would bat an eye. At such a low weight, however, his speed and explosion are surprisingly low. I wouldn't take a shot on him, personally. Sure but early in his career, as a freshman and really as a sophomore hard to not love what he showed on tape. This past year was bad, I agree, did not progress like most thought. But if only shown the sophomore tape and did not know about the story of this past spring and summer along with his current combine numbers... The Kid looks like a very high 1st round pick on that tape for sure I feel, and also looks like a big time looking athlete. That has changed some of course now, but the guy was a wow prospect as a sophomore. Super explosive and cat quick. Was not the same this past year, and would not think shoulder surgery would do that to him. 21 minutes ago, Broncofan said: The injuries esp to the lower body are killers to LB’s. It’s such a meat grinder position once they start recurring it’s worrisome. Evans missing time in 2016 and then more in 2017 with groin injuries does make me worry he’s wearing down. It’s just a matter of when. If you are lucky it’s in your late 20’s / 30 for most. If you are an athletic freak like Urlacher or Lewis or Kuechly or Willis you can decline from wear and tear or injury recovery at less than 100 percent and still be elite. If you aren’t elite athletically though the drop happens quickly. That’s what is happening to Brandon Marshall (LB not WR lol). That’s my main issue with Evans. Not knowing how athletic he is in NFL terms with his injury history at that position is a major flag to take him even early Day 2 esp given the devaluation of ILB. Honestly I would be more worried about his injury history compared to his athletic ability. He is an damn good athlete on tape and really can fly around on the field and make plays. Foster did not run a 40 either correct, maybe he took some advice from him. Some really loved Foster and his athletic ability last year, and Evans at times looked just as athletic on the field I feel. Evans really just in the interview process could win a lot of teams over, and this past year was the one time he actually got some real playing time and was not just a situational backup player filling in. Also early in his career, did get action but with some much talent around him did not play as often, was basically just a speed rusher and really that is a great skill to have. Guy can rush on the edge, play in the middle and chase ball carries down field with great speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneTwoSixFive Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I looked at the Florida State's Josh Sweat scouting reports late, as his knee injury put me off. When I finally started looking at him, I was almost conditioned not to like him, and yet........ His injury (high school ACL) seems fully behind him now. I looked at his combine high and long jumps, to help confirm that - high was 39.5" and long was 10' 4", no problems at all there. He is 6'4", 251 lbs, has arms just 3/8" short of 35 inches long, has big 10 1/4" hands. His worst fault is being late off the snap, not so vital if he is playing wider at OLB rather than a hand-down DE. He has more than enough athleticism and fluidity, and if the medicals show little in the way of long-term knee problems, he has a level of talent that to me says must-draft if he falls as far as round three, maybe even late round two. Here is a link to what NFL.com says https://www.nfl.com/prospects/josh-sweat?id=32462018-0002-5598-16eb-a8d5fb71f685 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 3 hours ago, MOSteelers56 said: His poor showing this offseason doesn't scare you? He's giving me flashbacks of Jarvis Jones. He's so much more athletic than Jarvis Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 On 4/4/2018 at 1:16 PM, Rich7sena said: Arden Key reportedly ran in the high 4.8s at LSU’s pro day. I'm more interested in his 10-yard split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Evans is a better football player than athlete. That being said I do not like him in the 1st round for the Steelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanSlim Posted April 19, 2018 Share Posted April 19, 2018 Didn't want to start a new thread about this but quick question for the draft "gurus" on here. Can Uchenna Nwosu play inside in a 3-4, or is he just a edge guy? Also who would be a comparison for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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