2018 Draft Eligible EDGE/RUSH Thread

[ak23]

On 9/13/2017 at 12:11 AM, PacAttack04 said:

At the same time, he's surrounded by NFL talent.  I mean, if he doesn't put up numbers because every other lineman it taking up the TFL/Sack numbers, doesn't look great for his pro prospects, right? Especially since you have guys like Hubbard, Jones, and Lewis who could all be 1st Round Picks.  He stays a year and puts up numbers as the main guy, he could easily be a top half of the first round pick with his tools.

But yea, wow.  OSU's D-line might all play in the NFL this year.  Thats ridiculous.........

Can't look at the TFL/sack numbers for OSU lineman. Holmes plays probably half the snaps he'd play at 95% of other schools. He's long with violent hands, plus athleticism and scheme versatility. I think he's gonna be a top 100 pick for sure. 

[justo]

Where I'm at right now:

Harold Landry, Boston College [120% Derek Barnett]

Hercules Mata'afa, Washington State* [Solomon Thomas]

-

Arden Key, LSU* [Anthony Barr]

Bradley Chubb, North Carolina State [Kerry Hyder]
-

Clelin Ferrell, Clemson** [80% Ezekiel Ansah]

Josh Sweat, Florida State* [80% Jadeveon Clowney]

-

Ogbonnia Okoronkwo, Oklahoma [Tyus Bowser]

Kemoko Turay, Rutgers

Jaylen Holmes, Ohio State

-

Sam Hubbard, Ohio State*

Dorance Armstrong, Kansas*

-

Tyquan Lewis, Ohio State

 

Still need to watch 2017 on: Duke Ejiofor (Wake Forest), Austin Bryant (Clemson), Porter Gustin (USC) and Lorenzo Carter (Georgia)

[CalhounLambeau]

Watch CeCe Jefferson/Florida and Josh Allen/Kentucky

[Calvert28]

Josh Sweat looks really undersized at DE. I do not believe he 6-5. Honestly I think it's more like 6-3 230 or something for what his actual size is.

He has some impressive physical skills but nothing I would really want to draft at the 3rd or 4th round right now for me.

[justo]

6 hours ago, CalhounLambeau said:

Watch CeCe Jefferson/Florida and Josh Allen/Kentucky

I've had an eye on CeCe since he was a frosh, but I'm just not gonna watch him unless he starts to put up the #s that make me think he's gonna come out. Too much going on rn to focus on maybes. Josh Allen put up numbers at UK last year. I'll check that out for sure. 

[TVScout]

On 9/30/2017 at 9:04 AM, Calvert28 said:

Josh Sweat looks really undersized at DE. I do not believe he 6-5. Honestly I think it's more like 6-3 230 or something for what his actual size is.

He has some impressive physical skills but nothing I would really want to draft at the 3rd or 4th round right now for me.

I am leery about FSU DEs because they have a history of underperformance in the League.

[DraftHobbyist]

On 8/11/2017 at 8:22 PM, IDOG_det said:

Bradley Chubb isn't the best DE on NC State

Is now a good time to revisit this comment?

[IDOG_det]

9 hours ago, DraftHobbyist said:

Is now a good time to revisit this comment?

Street and Chubb are closer now, but Chubb's performance against FSU is getting a little overrated. Street is still the better athlete, still stronger, still more explosive, still more flexible, etc. NC State used Street in coverage on TE's and RB's and they rotate him out to get #45 some reps. Really, he should be playing both DE and DT. 

[DraftHobbyist]

30 minutes ago, IDOG_det said:

Street and Chubb are closer now, but Chubb's performance against FSU is getting a little overrated. Street is still the better athlete, still stronger, still more explosive, still more flexible, etc. NC State used Street in coverage on TE's and RB's and they rotate him out to get #45 some reps. Really, he should be playing both DE and DT. 

In terms of production, if you take Chubb's Florida State performance completely away, he still has produced more than Street in almost every category. And the Florida State game was a highly productive game for Chubb. Street had a 0 in every category against Florida State.

[IDOG_det]

33 minutes ago, DraftHobbyist said:

In terms of production, if you take Chubb's Florida State performance completely away, he still has produced more than Street in almost every category. And the Florida State game was a highly productive game for Chubb. Street had a 0 in every category against Florida State.

Production is essentially meaningless for pass rushers

[DraftHobbyist]

1 minute ago, IDOG_det said:

Production is essentially meaningless for pass rushers

I highly disagree with that, but I think Chubb looks better on film, anyways. Street is too much of a tweener for me, and as a DE, he just runs himself out of plays, but he doesn't try to bull rush very often, either. He's probably best as a 4-3 DT at the next level. Give me the 6'4" 275 lb highly productive pass rusher in Nick Chubb.

[IDOG_det]

2 hours ago, DraftHobbyist said:

I highly disagree with that, but I think Chubb looks better on film, anyways. Street is too much of a tweener for me, and as a DE, he just runs himself out of plays, but he doesn't try to bull rush very often, either. He's probably best as a 4-3 DT at the next level. Give me the 6'4" 275 lb highly productive pass rusher in Nick Chubb.

you do know production doesn't carry over to the NFL, right? He doesn't get to take those sacks with him. College production doesn't cause NFL production, and you won't find any good correlations behind it either.

Not sure what you mean when you say that Street runs himself out of plays. He is often asked to be the force defender, which means he has to be the widest player so the rest of the defense can flow to the ball carrier after he forces them back inside. In those cases he is simply doing his job.

[DraftHobbyist]

28 minutes ago, IDOG_det said:

you do know production doesn't carry over to the NFL, right? He doesn't get to take those sacks with him. College production doesn't cause NFL production, and you won't find any good correlations behind it either.

Not sure what you mean when you say that Street runs himself out of plays. He is often asked to be the force defender, which means he has to be the widest player so the rest of the defense can flow to the ball carrier after he forces them back inside. In those cases he is simply doing his job.

I mean, you can be condescending, but that doesn't make you right. Let me ask you this: Do you believe a QB should be completing over 60% of his passes?

On Street, I understand that EDGE players often play contain, especially on the left side of the Defense. But it's pretty clear that Street consistently runs himself out of the play. You don't want to be behind the QB if you are trying to contain, either. Would you say that this is playing force responsibilities:

[IDOG_det]

53 minutes ago, DraftHobbyist said:

Do you believe a QB should be completing over 60% of his passes?

I don't see how a QB's completion percentage relates to a pass rusher being good.

 

55 minutes ago, DraftHobbyist said:

But it's pretty clear that Street consistently runs himself out of the play. You don't want to be behind the QB if you are trying to contain, either. Would you say that this is playing force responsibilities:

That isn't running himself out of the play. That is him rushing the edge and being on pace to get to the QB in 9 steps. If the QB doesn't step up he's in line to get a sack. He won't bend like a Tim Williams or Vic Beasley and cut the edge off on his 5th step. If you're expecting that, then you're fooling yourself (hell, Chubb doesn't/can't even do that). If you're expecting him to get a sack every play, then you're fooling yourself. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that he's going up against an offensive lineman that's starting in the NFL as a rookie. He isn't going to beat that kind of player every play. Go to 2:31 left in the 2nd quarter in that same game vs Vanderbilt. He pancakes that right tackle and would've had a sack had the DT on the other side not given up his rush lane. Go to the 9:00 mark in the 3rd quarter of that same game and you'll see him rush the edge as good as you'll ever see Bradley Chubb do it. Go to the 13:34 mark in the 4th quarter and you'll see him get a sack on a spin move that was set up by him rushing the edge like he did in your clip. If you watch that whole game you won't find a single play where he ran himself out of the play, despite your claim that he does it "consistently".

[DraftHobbyist]

2 hours ago, IDOG_det said:

I don't see how a QB's completion percentage relates to a pass rusher being good.

 

That isn't running himself out of the play. That is him rushing the edge and being on pace to get to the QB in 9 steps. If the QB doesn't step up he's in line to get a sack. He won't bend like a Tim Williams or Vic Beasley and cut the edge off on his 5th step. If you're expecting that, then you're fooling yourself (hell, Chubb doesn't/can't even do that). If you're expecting him to get a sack every play, then you're fooling yourself. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that he's going up against an offensive lineman that's starting in the NFL as a rookie. He isn't going to beat that kind of player every play. Go to 2:31 left in the 2nd quarter in that same game vs Vanderbilt. He pancakes that right tackle and would've had a sack had the DT on the other side not given up his rush lane. Go to the 9:00 mark in the 3rd quarter of that same game and you'll see him rush the edge as good as you'll ever see Bradley Chubb do it. Go to the 13:34 mark in the 4th quarter and you'll see him get a sack on a spin move that was set up by him rushing the edge like he did in your clip. If you watch that whole game you won't find a single play where he ran himself out of the play, despite your claim that he does it "consistently".

See, this is what you guys do. If I don't post a GIF, you tell me I'm not watching film and dismiss my point. If I do, you claim I'm making too much out of a single play, and still dismiss my point. I simply went and found the first play that fit what I was looking for. You can find this happening on a regular basis in his film, and often much more egregiously. You make it sound like Street is just destroying everybody yet he has no production, but then again, that doesn't matter to you. You're right, Street is going to bend like a Tim Williams, who isn't even a great bender. That's the problem. And he's on the shorter side, so he's likely going to play 4-3 DT than EDGE, maybe he can bulk up to be 3-4 DE.

Chubb is much better pass-rusher, and unsurprisingly, he's the one that gets the production. It's not like I'm making a huge deal about a sack or two difference. Street had 0 sacks his Freshman year, half a sack his Sophomore year, 5.5 sacks his Junior year which was good, and now he has 1 sack this year. By comparison, Chubb had 0, 5.5, 10, and 5.5 already. And you can look at almost any stat and Chubb is better. They play on the same Defense so that limits scheme issues. Sure, they have different responsibilities to some extent, but this is a huge difference, Street still has the ability to go after the QB on many occasions, and you have to ask yourself why Street is the container and Chubb is the sack artist. The coaches understand Chubb is a better sack artist. I think your argument would be far better if you said he was a better prospect as a 4-3 DT than Chubb is EDGE, but to compare them both as EDGE rushers, I have to give an easy advantage to Chubb. And honestly, I even think Street has a lot to like as a prospect, but I can't go as far as your argument.

EDIT: Oh, and about completion percentage, interesting that you wouldn't answer the question. The point was that production matters. That's why we care QB's are above 60%. Sure, production needs context, but you shouldn't just dismiss all production as having no relevance.