Cam Newton vs Michael Vick

[Crickett]

19 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Touch is more important than arm strength. It's not even close.

I would agree with this. 

 

19 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

I saw Chad Pennington live in 2004. I promise you, most high school QBs have comparable arm strength to him. He was just fine in the short passing game. He had one of the weakest arms of anybody who ever played pro football - a definite "fail" grade in the category - and he was still OK.

The problem is, if you were down by more than three points with less than two minutes to go, it was almost a certainty that Chad Pennington could not win you the game.  Because he just didn't have the arm strength to challenge defenses deep.  You don't need to use the prevent defense if you're not worried about the deep pass.  If a speed receiver got behind an opposing defense, it wouldn't matter because Pennington either wouldn't be able to get him the ball or the pass would have so much hang time, Orlando Brown would be able to catch up with it. 

 

19 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

How many elite QBs had elite arm strength? Favre. Roethlisberger's is pretty strong. Um...Elway, if you don't consider him overrated. 

Johnny Unitas and young Dan Marino?  Jim Kelly and Warren Moon? 

[NFLExpert49]

16 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

I wouldn't argue this. But you were acting like arm strength means nothing so long as you don't have a noodle. That is completely false.

Correct.

True. I'm not saying you can't be good with arm strength, but it's a huge tool to have at your disposal. Pennington was one of the extremely rare exceptions of a successful QB with a below average arm.

85-90% of the elite QB's had/have great arms. 

False. And Peyton Manning had a gun until he got to the Broncos. Tom Brady and Joe Montana didn't have elite arms, I'll grant you that. But that doesn't mean having a strong arm is not a key trait to look for.

Peyton Manning's arm strength was never better than average for an NFL QB. As Archie said in 2005 when comparing Peyton to Eli, neither of his kids had a Bert Jones arm, but Eli would come out slightly ahead of Peyton in the arm strength department.

Steve Young and Drew Brees, average arm strength. Dan Fouts was a touch passer with average arm strength at best. Ken Stabler relied on accuracy. Matt Ryan, average arm. Romo, Warner...average. Rodgers...good, but not great. Rich Gannon, mediocre arm strength.

Almost every NFL QB can get it about 60 yards down field, which is more than you need. You're never going to need to throw it 70 yards unless it's a hair mary situation, and for most tight window fits, accuracy and timing are sufficient. The great QBs are great at anticipating. They know how soon they have to release it - and where to put it - so that the defender doesn't have the chance to break on it in time. 

[Calvert28]

On 7/9/2018 at 10:00 AM, BleedTheClock said:

For real? You wish you could vote for a dog murderer because Cam Newton is a little arrogant?

Uhhh the dog murderer paid for his crime, which was a result of his upbringing. And has done multiple things to show he has changed his way. Cam is still just a b****.

[Malik]

19 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

Peyton Manning's arm strength was never better than average for an NFL QB. As Archie said in 2005 when comparing Peyton to Eli, neither of his kids had a Bert Jones arm, but Eli would come out slightly ahead of Peyton in the arm strength department.

Steve Young and Drew Brees, average arm strength. Dan Fouts was a touch passer with average arm strength at best. Ken Stabler relied on accuracy. Matt Ryan, average arm. Romo, Warner...average. Rodgers...good, but not great. Rich Gannon, mediocre arm strength.

Almost every NFL QB can get it about 60 yards down field, which is more than you need. You're never going to need to throw it 70 yards unless it's a hair mary situation, and for most tight window fits, accuracy and timing are sufficient. The great QBs are great at anticipating. They know how soon they have to release it - and where to put it - so that the defender doesn't have the chance to break on it in time. 

arm strength is as much as velocity as it is distance. Broncos Peyton was still throwing it far, but they all looked like ducks.

[BleedTheClock]

17 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

Uhhh the dog murderer paid for his crime, which was a result of his upbringing. And has done multiple things to show he has changed his way. Cam is still just a b****.

Cam Newton needs to "pay" for being a little arrogant?

I'm not even a big Cam Newton fan or anything, but this is ridiculous.

Also, everyone on planet earth is a result of their upbringing. I'm not giving someone that murders innocent animals a pass because it was a part of his childhood (allegedly). Does someone that murders or rapes people get a pass if it was a "result of their upbringing?" That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard...and it's crazy that it's not the first time I've heard this argument used.

Michael Vick had no choice but to change his ways and do multiple things to get back in the good graces of literally everyone on planet earth. He was public enemy #1. If he hadn't gotten caught, he'd probably be doing the same thing today.

[BleedTheClock]

On 7/10/2018 at 1:25 PM, NFLExpert49 said:

Peyton Manning's arm strength was never better than average for an NFL QB. As Archie said in 2005 when comparing Peyton to Eli, neither of his kids had a Bert Jones arm, but Eli would come out slightly ahead of Peyton in the arm strength department.

Steve Young and Drew Brees, average arm strength. Dan Fouts was a touch passer with average arm strength at best. Ken Stabler relied on accuracy. Matt Ryan, average arm. Romo, Warner...average. Rodgers...good, but not great. Rich Gannon, mediocre arm strength.

Almost every NFL QB can get it about 60 yards down field, which is more than you need. You're never going to need to throw it 70 yards unless it's a hair mary situation, and for most tight window fits, accuracy and timing are sufficient. The great QBs are great at anticipating. They know how soon they have to release it - and where to put it - so that the defender doesn't have the chance to break on it in time. 

Arm strength isn't how far you can throw it. It's about the velocity in which it comes out (at least for me.) Most of the guys you listed as having "average" arms have well above average zip on their throws. Stabler had a very good arm. Matt Ryan is above average. Romo had a great arm. Rodgers has a great arm lol. Rich Gannon had an above average arm. Drew Brees has an above average arm. Never really paid attention to Steve Young. Kurt Warner had an average arm, I'll give you that one. Never watched Dan Fouts either.

[Calvert28]

8 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Cam Newton needs to "pay" for being a little arrogant?

I'm not even a big Cam Newton fan or anything, but this is ridiculous.

Also, everyone on planet earth is a result of their upbringing. I'm not giving someone that murders innocent animals a pass because it was a part of his childhood (allegedly). Does someone that murders or rapes people get a pass if it was a "result of their upbringing?" That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard...and it's crazy that it's not the first time I've heard this argument used.

Michael Vick had no choice but to change his ways and do multiple things to get back in the good graces of literally everyone on planet earth. He was public enemy #1. If he hadn't gotten caught, he'd probably be doing the same thing today.

Vick has humility. I also said he PAID FOR HIS CRIMES.

Whats more dumb and asinine is the idea that you think once a criminal always a criminal. How very Inspector Javert of you.

And how do you know that Vicky would probably would be doing the same thing today had he not got caught? Things change, people change, people can grow. Some more so then others obviously given the comparison between the two in topic. If it weren't true, then I suppose everyone is a criminal in one way or another considering everyone has dabbled in some criminal aspect and snickering how they got away with it from even things as small as stealing a pack of gum from a store or running a stop sign. Although I suppose this is where you come back saying that penance doesn't absolve you of crimes and he still committed a serious crime right?

[BleedTheClock]

11 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Vick has humility. I also said he PAID FOR HIS CRIMES.

Whats more dumb and asinine is the idea that you think once a criminal always a criminal. How very Inspector Javert of you.

And how do you know that Vicky would probably would be doing the same thing today had he not got caught? Things change, people change, people can grow. Some more so then others obviously given the comparison between the two in topic. If it weren't true, then I suppose everyone is a criminal in one way or another considering everyone has dabbled in some criminal aspect and snickering how they got away with it from even things as small as stealing a pack of gum from a store or running a stop sign. Although I suppose this is where you come back saying that penance doesn't absolve you of crimes and he still committed a serious crime right?

Murdering something innocent vs. running a stop sign vs. stealing a pack of gum.

 

If you're capable of drowning and electrocuting an innocent animal, F you forever. That's the way I look at it.

[Calvert28]

16 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Murdering something innocent vs. running a stop sign vs. stealing a pack of gum.

 

If you're capable of drowning and electrocuting an innocent animal, F you forever. That's the way I look at it.

Yep just like I thought.

[BleedTheClock]

36 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Yep just like I thought.

As it should be. Do I think he's capable of change? Yeah, but you don't get to be a rapist, for example, and then because you eventually realize that was a horrible thing to do, get to shed the label of a rapist.

Just because he "changed" doesn't take the stink off of his name. He not only fought dogs, but decided to brutally murder the ones that didn't show enough viciousness. If I want to hate someone that did something like that, I think it's more than acceptable. If you want to forgive him because he's good at football, go ahead. And if you think this "oh, he does so much for abused animals now" PR campaign that he's been on makes it ok, you got duped.

Maybe he has changed deep down, but there aren't things much more evil than brutally killing innocent animals. I have a hard time believing you can just flip a switch and be cured of that kind of darkness.

[Calvert28]

21 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

As it should be. Do I think he's capable of change? Yeah, but you don't get to be a rapist, for example, and then because you eventually realize that was a horrible thing to do, get to shed the label of a rapist.

Just because he "changed" doesn't take the stink off of his name. He not only fought dogs, but decided to brutally murder the ones that didn't show enough viciousness. If I want to hate someone that did something like that, I think it's more than acceptable. If you want to forgive him because he's good at football, go ahead. And if you think this "oh, he does so much for abused animals now" PR campaign that he's been on makes it ok, you got duped.

Maybe he has changed deep down, but there aren't things much more evil than brutally killing innocent animals. I have a hard time believing you can just flip a switch and be cured of that kind of darkness.

No it shouldnt. I forgave him because he's good at football? Making things up are we?

And he didn't just flip a switch, he went to prison, he went through courses, took the blame, he got to experience a different view on it.

Rapist rarely grow up in an environment where it condones that sort of thing. The violent ones that are in those triple max places often got there because of a God complex that just gave them the right to take in their head. Most of the crimes committed in those places are done by people who were so consumed at the time of just getting what they want that everyone else became a object. It's a special type of selfishness that can be described as evil. Criminal thinking always starts with what the perpetrator wants. A self entitled attitude, much like the one Cam has. Even if he never commits a crime like Vick, chances are he will never change who he is the way Vick has.

Someone with a dark past is nearly always easier to trust when you know what it is because you know what will motivate them and how to handle them. But self entitled guys who thinks it's all for them? Well they eventually do something like a certain Bucs starting QB or far worse. Guys like Cam are usually crimes waiting to come to the light.

[BleedTheClock]

1 minute ago, Calvert28 said:

Rapist rarely grow up in an environment where it condones that sort of thing.

Just a heads up, most rapists are victims of sexual abuse themselves. It doesn't at all excuse their actions, but it's more likely that someone was a victim of sexual assault before they committed the crime than it is that they just have a God Complex.

But that's an entirely different situation.

 

 

In Michael Vick's case, it's impossible to tell if he's a better person because of what was on the line. He had literally no choice but to become a voice of reason and shoot his "old self" down at every turn. Maybe he is a better person now. Do I think that he'd ever do something like that again? Absolutely not. But do I think he genuinely feels like he was a horrible monster in his dog murdering days? I don't think so.

[Calvert28]

4 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Just a heads up, most rapists are victims of sexual abuse themselves. It doesn't at all excuse their actions, but it's more likely that someone was a victim of sexual assault before they committed the crime than it is that they just have a God Complex.

But that's an entirely different situation.

 

 

In Michael Vick's case, it's impossible to tell if he's a better person because of what was on the line. He had literally no choice but to become a voice of reason and shoot his "old self" down at every turn. Maybe he is a better person now. Do I think that he'd ever do something like that again? Absolutely not. But do I think he genuinely feels like he was a horrible monster in his dog murdering days? I don't think so.

Considering the act of rape is known as anything non-consensual involving sexual intercourse. No that's not true in the least because even then coercion could be argued at that point as forcing the other person . Even the most violent of of perpetrators such as Ted Bundy never had any reported issues as a kid. There are most certainly victims that turn into criminals like that. But "most"? Absolutely not. The more studies that are done, the more the numbers tend to vary. Also considering the act itself is largely about domination and control. Yes that feeds into the idea that there is a God complex to it.

Vick has not had any incident since then. Over 10 years I believe. You have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Did I say you have to trust him? No, but to say that he has maybe changed but still warrants the title of animal abuser is contradicting yourself.

[BleedTheClock]

26 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

but to say that he has maybe changed but still warrants the title of animal abuser is contradicting yourself.

You don't lose that title. The same way you stay on a sex offender registry for life if you do something that warrants it. It doesn't mean you'll act again, but it shouldn't be expunged from existence if you seem like you've removed yourself from that lifestyle. It's not like he was some dumb 13 year old kid that hit a dog. He was a grown man strangling and electrocuting puppies. If that doesn't sicken you, I don't know what possibly could. It's disgusting what he did and it should follow him forever in my opinion.

[Calvert28]

1 minute ago, BleedTheClock said:

You don't lose that title. The same way you stay on a sex offender registry for life if you do something that warrants it. It doesn't mean you'll act again, but it shouldn't be expunged from existence if you seem like you've removed yourself from that lifestyle. It's not like he was some dumb 13 year old kid that hit a dog. He was a grown man strangling and electrocuting puppies. If that doesn't sicken you, I don't know what possibly could. It's disgusting what he did and it should follow him forever in my opinion.

Yea still never understood the point of the registry, nor a ankle bracelet for that matter. If a person is going to commit a crime you think those things are gonna stop it? It's an illusion of safety and control that manipulates the public into thinking that person is under control, not accounting for the criminal who hasn't been caught yet. The person able to justify the crime is more likely to act out again rather then the one who goes through a rehabilitated process. I'm not talking about prison where criminals actually become worse but courses, classes, and such that encourages the individuals to see the pain they've caused and actually start the process of developing empathy as a mental block to future crimes.

But you still contradicted yourself. He either is or he isn't. You can't just say, he's changed but he's still a criminal. The term animal abuser or rapist or w/e says that he is still willing and looking for a way to commit these crimes again. He hasn't shown anything of the sort. It's actually crimes like his that are so public and spark such an outcry and that includes things like a person who committed a sexually violent crime are far less likely to commit a similar crime or even a crime in general as opposed to say a thief, or an or someone convicted of assault and battery against a woman, man or child.