Training Camp 2018 discussion

[paraven]

36 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

That's what I am trying to get at here...WE DON'T HAVE A GREAT HOUSE. Flacco has never been great, and for the past 5 years he hasn't even been average. We have the equivalent to a mobile home right now and people are like "Well if we sell the mobile home, there's no guarantee that we'll have a house after that!". Why are people so scared of what Lamar Jackson brings? At worst he's a bust and then we're pretty much back to where we are right now with Flacco. In every other scenario we are a better team.

Actually no, that was before I started following the Ravens.

well there lies the difference. I think most of us who were fans during that period know how truely bad it is to not have a franchise QB. When flacco came along he finally changed that and will always be that special guy just simply because he broke that carousel. Mediocre or not ,hes proven he can lead the team to the promised land which is all we ask. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

18 minutes ago, paraven said:

well there lies the difference. I think most of us who were fans during that period know how truely bad it is to not have a franchise QB. When flacco came along he finally changed that and will always be that special guy just simply because he broke that carousel. Mediocre or not ,hes proven he can lead the team to the promised land which is all we ask. 

The key caveat being that we even make the playoffs, which Flacco has also shown he cannot lead us to in the past 5 years. The only time since 2012 we made the playoffs was the year Flacco had an amazing supporting cast and Kubiak's offensive system. Yes, Flacco has shown that once in the playoffs, he's capable of elevating his play, but he's not shown he can ever lead us to the playoffs in the first place.

As for the "franchise QB" thing with Flacco, it's more of just the fact that we chained ourselves to Flacco and refused to let go more than anything. On most other teams, he would've been gone by now.

[paraven]

11 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

The key caveat being that we even make the playoffs, which Flacco has also shown he cannot lead us to in the past 5 years. The only time since 2012 we made the playoffs was the year Flacco had an amazing supporting cast and Kubiak's offensive system. Yes, Flacco has shown that once in the playoffs, he's capable of elevating his play, but he's not shown he can ever lead us to the playoffs in the first place.

As for the "franchise QB" thing with Flacco, it's more of just the fact that we chained ourselves to Flacco and refused to let go more than anything. On most other teams, he would've been gone by now.

to be fair, i dont think a lot of qbs could bring this team to the playoffs with lack of offensive talent it has had in 2016 and 17. I beleive the ravens would have made the playoffs in 15 as well before they got hit by injuries. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, paraven said:

to be fair, i dont think a lot of qbs could bring this team to the playoffs with lack of offensive talent it has had in 2016 and 17. I beleive the ravens would have made the playoffs in 15 as well before they got hit by injuries. 

One of the main reasons we've been held back in both '16 and '17 was poor offense, which was led by poor QB play. You don't think, under similar circumstances, "a lot" of QB's could post better play than Flacco did these past 2 years? All they'd have to do is average 19 TD's and 14 INT's and about 3,650 passing yards to match Flacco. Looking at the aggregate stats for 2016 and 2017, all we'd need is an above average QB and that's about it. We missed the playoffs by one game each time, and an above average QB, or even average (Flacco's stats are below-average for both years) would probably net us an additional win at least.

[Danand]

13 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

The key caveat being that we even make the playoffs, which Flacco has also shown he cannot lead us to in the past 5 years. The only time since 2012 we made the playoffs was the year Flacco had an amazing supporting cast and Kubiak's offensive system. Yes, Flacco has shown that once in the playoffs, he's capable of elevating his play, but he's not shown he can ever lead us to the playoffs in the first place.

As for the "franchise QB" thing with Flacco, it's more of just the fact that we chained ourselves to Flacco and refused to let go more than anything. On most other teams, he would've been gone by now.

I still don't understand how you can be so blind to what the team has achieved under Flaccos tenure. Ravens had a great team with so many profilic players in several years after the super bowl year, but almost every year the team was held back by the quarterback play.

As Paraven mentioned, Flacco broke that carousel, he may never be elite - which apparently is the only thing that is valid to you. The rest of us are more grounded and have an understanding of the game, that if you bet your franchise on getting that elite quarterback, you are going to struggle. 

The mediocrity you think are the Ravens under Flacco vastly lies on your opinion, which would  reduce 80 percent of the teams in the league to a rating of below mediocrity. We have a cluster of teams with elite quarterbacks who over the same timespan have the same amount of succes. In a sport with very little difference between succes and failure, the Ravens with Flacco have been on the right side more than the wrong side, and with a few key plays going our way, we could have been to two other super bowls. Ofc this also swings the other way, but it didn't.

Right, we struggled the past years, which is why our coaches staff look toward the future, and I don't think anyones afraid to see Flacco go - IF Lamar Jackson is better. We will see, and the change could come sooner than many of us think, if that is the case, then we didn't lose anything. We would lose if we just cut Flacco and have Lamar Jackson go before he is ready and have him develop David Carr syndrom or the like.

[Danand]

Just now, Darth Pees said:

One of the main reasons we've been held back in both '16 and '17 was poor offense, which was led by poor QB play. You don't think, under similar circumstances, "a lot" of QB's could post better play than Flacco did these past 2 years? All they'd have to do is average 19 TD's and 14 INT's and about 3,650 passing yards to match Flacco. Looking at the aggregate stats for 2016 and 2017, all we'd need is an above average QB and that's about it. We missed the playoffs by one game each time, and an above average QB, or even average (Flacco's stats are below-average for both years) would probably net us an additional win at least.

With the oline play in many games, most QB's would struggle just as much. Brady is currently 1-3 on every QB ranking, and every time his oline doesn't hold up (especially against the Chiefs for some reason), media talk about if Brady is done.

Forget your PFF stats to prove something about the oline, watch some games instead. Then it is pretty clear, that while Flacco played subpar, his game also elevates once he get the necessary protection to let routes develop. 

[paraven]

1 minute ago, Darth Pees said:

One of the main reasons we've been held back in both '16 and '17 was poor offense, which was led by poor QB play. You don't think, under similar circumstances, "a lot" of QB's could post better play than Flacco did these past 2 years? All they'd have to do is average 19 TD's and 14 INT's and about 3,650 passing yards to match Flacco. Looking at the aggregate stats for 2016 and 2017, all we'd need is an above average QB and that's about it. We missed the playoffs by one game each time, and an above average QB, or even average (Flacco's stats are below-average for both years) would probably net us an additional win at least.

I usually agree with you, but last years receiving corp was as bad as it gets. Look how well Flacco plays when you get him a decent wr who can play. IE Boldin, Mason, SSS, etc. Non of those guys were "superstars" at the time they were with the ravens. SSS was way over the hill but still put up numbers because he was still a decent player. Fast fwd to last year where Maclin couldnt catch a cold (nor stay on the field) was supposed to be our top wr. There was just no hope for that offense. Im excited to see how Flacco will play this season. I totally expect the 2014 version to show up and to make a deep playoff run, holding off the jackson era until at least 2020

[SalvadorsDeli]

5 hours ago, paraven said:

well there lies the difference. I think most of us who were fans during that period know how truely bad it is to not have a franchise QB. When flacco came along he finally changed that and will always be that special guy just simply because he broke that carousel. Mediocre or not ,hes proven he can lead the team to the promised land which is all we ask. 

I was there during the days of Banks, the GOAT Dilfer, Grbac, Boller, Anthony Wright, etc... and I'm gonna go with @Darth Pees on this.

The flipside of "you don't get that Flacco broke the wheel of mediocre QB's" is that people are now touting "well look, Flacco is better than Anthony Wright and Kyle Boller" as if that's actually an impressive achievement. Everyone's so scared of going back to Kyle "I can throw a football through the uprights on one knee from the 50 yard line which is a real thing you do in games" Boller that they'll talk themselves into pretending anything Flacco does is great. 

Quote

I still don't understand how you can be so blind to what the team has achieved under Flaccos tenure. Ravens had a great team with so many profilic players in several years after the super bowl year, but almost every year the team was held back by the quarterback play.

No one is blind to what Flacco and the Ravens achieved between 2008 and 2012.

What a lot of people who still go to the mat for Flacco are blind to is that we haven't achieved anything in 5 years, and Flacco's play is a big part of it.

If people want to sit here and say that saying Lamar Jackson could be good is just wishcasting, fine - "we don't know if he'll be good" is certainly a reasonable POV to take. But let's not pretend that basically every defense of Flacco isn't some form of the same wishcasting - "he needs better weapons! He's held back by an offensive system! He's just recovering from injury!" We have years worth of data that points to Flacco being mediocre now. And what's more... the organization clearly sees this. Lamar Jackson isn't a Raven right now if the organization that knows everything there is to know about him as a player and person did not feel like they were watching a player in decline. The Atlanta Falcons did not just draft Matt Ryan's heir. But we drafted Flacco's. Because he's not very good! And we're way past "he's better than Anthony Wright" as a valid defense. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

42 minutes ago, Danand said:

With the oline play in many games, most QB's would struggle just as much. Brady is currently 1-3 on every QB ranking, and every time his oline doesn't hold up (especially against the Chiefs for some reason), media talk about if Brady is done.

Forget your PFF stats to prove something about the oline, watch some games instead. Then it is pretty clear, that while Flacco played subpar, his game also elevates once he get the necessary protection to let routes develop. 

Our offensive line this past year was actually pretty damn solid. I don't know where this narrative is coming from that they weren't. And the year before that we still had a solid line as well, with Rick Wagner, Yanda and Stanley. Throw any above average QB behind that and we'll see much better results. Flacco has displayed absolutely nothing to indicate that it's as simple as "if you just protect him...". For example:

Top QB's when under pressure. Notice who is #1. Yeah whenever the Patriots lose on opening day everyone flips their ****, but by week 3 it's gone.

Flacco is never on any of these lists - pressure or no pressure. It really doesn't matter if we protect him or not, because he doesn't particularly shine either way.

41 minutes ago, paraven said:

I usually agree with you, but last years receiving corp was as bad as it gets. Look how well Flacco plays when you get him a decent wr who can play. IE Boldin, Mason, SSS, etc. Non of those guys were "superstars" at the time they were with the ravens. SSS was way over the hill but still put up numbers because he was still a decent player. Fast fwd to last year where Maclin couldnt catch a cold (nor stay on the field) was supposed to be our top wr. There was just no hope for that offense. Im excited to see how Flacco will play this season. I totally expect the 2014 version to show up and to make a deep playoff run, holding off the jackson era until at least 2020

Oh trust me, I've seen Flacco with "good" WR's. You know what happens? Nothing. His stats don't improve that much, he still plays average-at-best, and all the fans go "HE NEEDS A TOP 5 WR! WE HAVE NOTHING!". They did it when Mason was here. They did it when Q was here. They did it when SSSR was here. They did it when Wallace was the #1, and there's literally no indication of that stopping now that Crabtree is here.

If you don't believe me, just look at his career stats. The only outlier there in TD's is the Kubiak year. But he still had SSSR for 2 more years, yet his stats didn't elevate. He had Q from 2010 to 2012 and Q averaged like 5 TD's a year here, and Flacco's stats remained pretty much the same as his career average. Basically what I'm saying here is there is absolutely no statistical evidence that indicates that Flacco plays better when "we just get him a decent WR who can play". We've done that throughout his career and nothing's changed.

If you want to see what you're going to get from Flacco with WR's who can play, just go back and look at the countless years we had Q and Torrey. Q and Mason. etc. etc. etc. it's always the same, except for the Kubiak year, where the difference was everything around him was good. The system. The run game. The WR's. The TE's. Everything. That's what you need to make Flacco even look above average, apparently.

[paraven]

19 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

Our offensive line this past year was actually pretty damn solid. I don't know where this narrative is coming from that they weren't. And the year before that we still had a solid line as well, with Rick Wagner, Yanda and Stanley. Throw any above average QB behind that and we'll see much better results. Flacco has displayed absolutely nothing to indicate that it's as simple as "if you just protect him...". For example:

Top QB's when under pressure. Notice who is #1. Yeah whenever the Patriots lose on opening day everyone flips their ****, but by week 3 it's gone.

Flacco is never on any of these lists - pressure or no pressure. It really doesn't matter if we protect him or not, because he doesn't particularly shine either way.

Oh trust me, I've seen Flacco with "good" WR's. You know what happens? Nothing. His stats don't improve that much, he still plays average-at-best, and all the fans go "HE NEEDS A TOP 5 WR! WE HAVE NOTHING!". They did it when Mason was here. They did it when Q was here. They did it when SSSR was here. They did it when Wallace was the #1, and there's literally no indication of that stopping now that Crabtree is here.

If you don't believe me, just look at his career stats. The only outlier there in TD's is the Kubiak year. But he still had SSSR for 2 more years, yet his stats didn't elevate. He had Q from 2010 to 2012 and Q averaged like 5 TD's a year here, and Flacco's stats remained pretty much the same as his career average. Basically what I'm saying here is there is absolutely no statistical evidence that indicates that Flacco plays better when "we just get him a decent WR who can play". We've done that throughout his career and nothing's changed.

If you want to see what you're going to get from Flacco with WR's who can play, just go back and look at the countless years we had Q and Torrey. Q and Mason. etc. etc. etc. it's always the same, except for the Kubiak year, where the difference was everything around him was good. The system. The run game. The WR's. The TE's. Everything. That's what you need to make Flacco even look above average, apparently.

 

oh trust me, I've seen Flacco with "good" WR's. You know what happens? Nothing. His stats don't improve that much, he still plays average-at-best, and all the fans go "HE NEEDS A TOP 5 WR! WE HAVE NOTHING!". They did it when Mason was here. They did it when Q was here. They did it when SSSR was here. They did it when Wallace was the #1, and there's literally no indication of that stopping now that Crabtree is here.

Except Mason and SSS were all past their prime. Hes never had that go to guy, like Dalton does in Aj Green. Heck look at Matt Ryan, hes had roddy white, then went right to Julio Jones. Im not saying having those guys would elevate Flacco to the HOF, but they certainly would elevate his stats to top 15, if he had 2 guys like that to throw to throughout his career. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

4 minutes ago, paraven said:

Except Mason and SSS were all past their prime. Hes never had that go to guy, like Dalton does in Aj Green. Heck look at Matt Ryan, hes had roddy white, then went right to Julio Jones. Im not saying having those guys would elevate Flacco to the HOF, but they certainly would elevate his stats to top 15, if he had 2 guys like that to throw to throughout his career. 

Do you see what you're doing already? First it was "any decent WR who can play" and now it's "He's never had an AJ Green". That's exactly my point. It's never good enough for Flacco. Q in his prime? "He's not a #1!". Steve Smith Sr? "He was past his prime!". It doesn't matter.

Russell Wilson's best WR has been Doug freaking Baldwin his entire career, who was a UDFA. Doesn't seem to impact him. Oh, and he's never had an offensive line. Oh, and his run game fell to crap once Lynch left. Still hasn't really impacted his play.

Yeah, a lot of top QB's have top WR's or targets, but one major point that is often ignored there is that the reason those WR's become that good is because of the QB. Joe Flacco doesn't do that for anyone. You're either a stud when you come here or you're not. He's not gonna elevate your play at all and make you look better. Furthermore, while Flacco has never had that top 5 WR, he's had many years of great supporting casts as a whole, featuring guys like Ray Rice, Todd Heap and Dennis Pitta just to name a few.

[paraven]

1 hour ago, Darth Pees said:

Do you see what you're doing already? First it was "any decent WR who can play" and now it's "He's never had an AJ Green". That's exactly my point. It's never good enough for Flacco. Q in his prime? "He's not a #1!". Steve Smith Sr? "He was past his prime!". It doesn't matter.

Russell Wilson's best WR has been Doug freaking Baldwin his entire career, who was a UDFA. Doesn't seem to impact him. Oh, and he's never had an offensive line. Oh, and his run game fell to crap once Lynch left. Still hasn't really impacted his play.

Yeah, a lot of top QB's have top WR's or targets, but one major point that is often ignored there is that the reason those WR's become that good is because of the QB. Joe Flacco doesn't do that for anyone. You're either a stud when you come here or you're not. He's not gonna elevate your play at all and make you look better. Furthermore, while Flacco has never had that top 5 WR, he's had many years of great supporting casts as a whole, featuring guys like Ray Rice, Todd Heap and Dennis Pitta just to name a few.

Q was good, but he was never a #1 in the league. like I said with better weapons, hes leaps and bounds better then names such as Mariota, WInston, Dalton, etc

[DreamKid]

1 hour ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

If people want to sit here and say that saying Lamar Jackson could be good is just wishcasting, fine - "we don't know if he'll be good" is certainly a reasonable POV to take. But let's not pretend that basically every defense of Flacco is some form of the same wishcasting - "he needs better weapons! He's held back by an offensive system! He's just recovering from injury!" We have years worth of data that points to Flacco being mediocre now. And what's more... the organization clearly sees this. Lamar Jackson isn't a Raven right now if the organization that knows everything there is to know about him as a player and person did not feel like they were watching a player in decline. The Atlanta Falcons did not just draft Matt Ryan's heir. But we drafted Flacco's. Because he's not very good! And we're way past "he's better than Anthony Wright" as a valid defense. 

I'm assuming you meant "isn't". 

1 hour ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Everyone's so scared of going back to Kyle "I can throw a football through the uprights on one knee from the 50 yard line which is a real thing you do in games" Boller that they'll talk themselves into pretending anything Flacco does is great.

Does pretending this is true make you feel more brave? As someone who stands up against the oh so scary Pro Flacco agenda lol

 

The self importance either side attaches to their ignorance in the Flacco debate is so odd...

 

Why can't it just be- Joe Flacco's level of consistency has dropped over the years. Injuries and a poor supporting cast are major contributing factors, but valid questions of regression remain. Due to this the Ravens drafted promising rookie Lamar Jackson. While also surrounding a now healthy Joe Flacco with a strong group of pass catchers to give him every chance at a return to form and success, and Lamar Jackson a stable RS opportunity for at least one season. 

 

Don't get me wrong the "gem" examples/evidence you guys think you're dropping are hilarious, but are we going to really recycle and ride the same nonsense all the way into the season?

 

 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

19 minutes ago, paraven said:

Q was good, but he was never a #1 in the league. like I said with better weapons, hes leaps and bounds better then names such as Mariota, WInston, Dalton, etc

And what I'm saying is that statistically, this isn't even remotely true.

[SalvadorsDeli]

1 hour ago, DreamKid said:

While also surrounding a now healthy Joe Flacco with a strong group of pass catchers to give him every chance at a return to form and success, and Lamar Jackson a stable RS opportunity for at least one season.

 

 

Agree to disagree with the rest, because all I've seen for years from our fanbase is people making excuses and lowering expectations for Flacco at every turn in order to make it seem like we have no right to turn up the heat on one of the highest paid QB's in the league... but just want to isolate this here. I'm glad we're putting this line in the sand now about Flacco having a "strong group of pass catchers" to work with now because I promise you we'll be hearing about how terrible his weapons are come October or November if he's giving us his typical Flacco output. 

And just for the record, I'm not advocating for Lamar to start Week 1 or anything like that.