2018 Rookie Talk

[SalvadorsDeli]

I'm as hyped for Lamar as I am for underwhelmed by Hurst. We really went and got ourselves the Brandon Weeden of TE's... 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

16 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

I'm as hyped for Lamar as I am for underwhelmed by Hurst. We really went and got ourselves the Brandon Weeden of TE's... 

Thing is...we haven't seen enough of him on the field to know if he sucks and can't get open or if we're just not doing anything to get him the ball or not. I haven't watched enough tape of him or seen him on the field enough to know one way or the other.

[SalvadorsDeli]

6 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Thing is...we haven't seen enough of him on the field to know if he sucks and can't get open or if we're just not doing anything to get him the ball or not. I haven't watched enough tape of him or seen him on the field enough to know one way or the other.

Obviously this was all complicated by him getting hurt but it's just not encouraging to me that he has failed to establish himself in any way so far. And it's hard for me to imagine this is just the coaches integrating rookies too slowly into the gameplan when one of the guys outsnapping him/attracting more targets than him on a regular basis is fellow rookie Mark Andrews. When I look at what Andrews has done this year I see a guy who is going through what might be considered a normal slow but promising rookie year with some real things to build off of, whereas Hurst has just been MIA. 

Considering Hurst's big selling point when he first got drafted as a 41 year old was that he'd be immediately NFL-ready, it's hard for that pick to be graded as anything other than bad so far.

 

[M.10.E]

9 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Obviously this was all complicated by him getting hurt but it's just not encouraging to me that he has failed to establish himself in any way so far. And it's hard for me to imagine this is just the coaches integrating rookies too slowly into the gameplan when one of the guys outsnapping him/attracting more targets than him on a regular basis is fellow rookie Mark Andrews. When I look at what Andrews has done this year I see a guy who is going through what might be considered a normal slow but promising rookie year with some real things to build off of, whereas Hurst has just been MIA. 

Considering Hurst's big selling point when he first got drafted as a 41 year old was that he'd be immediately NFL-ready, it's hard for that pick to be graded as anything other than bad so far.

 

Yeah if Hurst was 23 or younger I wouldn't be too worried, but man at 25 you'd' hope he'd be doing SOMETHING at least.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

12 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Obviously this was all complicated by him getting hurt but it's just not encouraging to me that he has failed to establish himself in any way so far. And it's hard for me to imagine this is just the coaches integrating rookies too slowly into the gameplan when one of the guys outsnapping him/attracting more targets than him on a regular basis is fellow rookie Mark Andrews. When I look at what Andrews has done this year I see a guy who is going through what might be considered a normal slow but promising rookie year with some real things to build off of, whereas Hurst has just been MIA. 

Considering Hurst's big selling point when he first got drafted as a 41 year old was that he'd be immediately NFL-ready, it's hard for that pick to be graded as anything other than bad so far.

Yeah I agree, which is why I'm curious to see what people who have access to the tape are saying about Hurst. Is he just lost? Is he not even getting snaps (just checked the snap counts yesterday and Hurst was on the field for 44% of offensive snaps and did not have a single target in the passing game. Nick Boyle was on the field for 67%, Mark Andrews for 32%). I'm just so confused. Did we COMPLETELY scout this guy wrong, or is Marty refusing to get him involved? I wasn't a fan of the pick at the time, but I still want to believe this guy can't be so bad that he can't even receive more looks in the passing game than our blocking TE.

2 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

Yeah if Hurst was 23 or younger I wouldn't be too worried, but man at 25 you'd' hope he'd be doing SOMETHING at least.

Completely agreed.

[RavensTillIDie]

2 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Yeah I agree, which is why I'm curious to see what people who have access to the tape are saying about Hurst. Is he just lost? Is he not even getting snaps (just checked the snap counts yesterday and Hurst was on the field for 44% of offensive snaps and did not have a single target in the passing game. Nick Boyle was on the field for 67%, Mark Andrews for 32%). I'm just so confused. Did we COMPLETELY scout this guy wrong, or is Marty refusing to get him involved? I wasn't a fan of the pick at the time, but I still want to believe this guy can't be so bad that he can't even receive more looks in the passing game than our blocking TE.

Completely agreed.

Eh, I wouldn't take yesterday's game as an indicator of anything. I doubt Hurst was running anywhere near the same type of safe, underneath routes as Nick Boyle. And Boyle was in there so often because he was doubling as the H back given how often they decided to run it yesterday. Not speaking to Hurt's ability one way or another, but I think there's still a lot of upside there that we have yet to see because of some combination of injury, integrating with the QB, and/or offensive play design.

[diamondbull424]

I think what people have to remember is that Hurst isn’t the first old rookie TE for the Ravens that didn’t have great success early. Dennis Pitta was a 25 year old rookie as well and went from having a 11 game, 1 rec, 5 yds season... to his next season putting up over 400 yds receiving.

Now I’m not saying that I’m glad we went with Hurst over Chubb and company (though I’m liking what I see from Gus Edwards as an UDFA runner) or some other option in retrospect, but I’m just stating we have temper expectations a little. The good thing about Andrews that’s allowed him great success early has been his ability to find the soft spots in zone defense (especially for a quarterback in the scramble drill due to Mayfield). Hurst was more of an Anquan Boldin type of “trust him to beat man coverage with his elite hands and body positioning even if he’s covered” type of option (though he’s athletic enough to move down the seam if given). It took Flacco time before he got comfortable throwing to an established player like Boldin in that capacity and I imagine it will take time for Hurst to adjust to the upgraded technique and physicality at the NFL level to translate his skillset to this level of play.

Now obviously there are plenty of players I would’ve taken over Hurst in the first round, at the time and in hindsight, but I still feel confident that Hurst will be a playmaker for a future Super Bowl winning squad of ours in the future.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Over the past 3 weeks, Hurst has been on the field 44% of the time (44.1%, 44.3%, 44.3%), and has seen a whopping 5 targets in those 3 games - one of those 5 targets resulted in his only touchdown reception of the year and it was from Lamar Jackson in garbage time.

So even when Flacco was playing and Hurst was on the field 44% of the time, we still haven't made any attempts to get him involved. 

If we're going to see Hurst struggled his rookie year and then give us 2-3 good years before he retires when he's 31 years old, no thank you. If you're going to draft an older player, the expectation is they should be ready to freaking go day one.

If Hurst was a guy who can win positioning battles in man coverage, why are we not isolating him 1v1 and throwing jump balls like we are with Andrews (who has not won a single one of those, mind you)? Hurst is clearly athletic, why are we not designing TE screens for him and instead throwing them to Nick "I can run 1.5mph AND THAT'S IT" Boyle?

I'm not ready to give up on Hurst, because right now I think it's scheme more than anything hurting Hurst's chances at having an even mediocre year.

[DreamKid]

4 hours ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

And it's hard for me to imagine this is just the coaches integrating rookies too slowly into the gameplan when one of the guys outsnapping him/attracting more targets than him on a regular basis is fellow rookie Mark Andrews.

So you're giving our coaches the benefit of the doubt?    

lol

 

Yea it's on them. Personally I'm happy Hayden Hurst isn't attracting more targets than Mark Andrews. The coaches have had him running 6 yard hitches. Flacco throwing to him would've been a waste. Hayden's AVG Target Distance is 8.3 Yards. 

Only recently has his quality of routes given improved, and it's still no where close to where it should be. When we moved to our #2s against the Panthers and Hayden got the primary routes, he caught a 22 Yard TD. Against the steelers coming out of halftime, when we wanted to actually make a point of getting the ball to Hayden on 1 of his 11 routes. He burned the LB on him for a 21 Yard Catch. 

Hurst is a good player with an exceptionally valuable skill set. It's the utilization of him that's been the problem. With Jackson starting for a couple games, expectations need to be tempered too. Lamar has good chemistry with Hayden, but at this point in his development he lacks the ability to strike on tight window throws downfield. Something I don't fault him for, he's a Rookie. Until Flacco comes back, the true potential of a weapon like Hurst will be unmet. 

Asking/expecting Lamar to make a throw like this to take advantage of our Tight Ends would be unfair and stupid.

 

 

Hopefully Lamar's ability to suck those LBs up in inside will be taken advantage of and we'll get Andrews and Hurst to provide some big open targets downfield for the kid, but I doubt that will happen. I'm expecting a 5-10% slide to more spread concepts against the Raiders but largely the same approach with Lamar as the Cinci game.

[DreamKid]

Remember League's Worst Defense. So don't get overwhelmed. Still though, a great and encouraging performance by Gus Edwards. The Bengals as a whole might be horrid but guys like Geno and Burfict aren't. Gus deserves his props.

 

[DreamKid]

Before you criticize Lamar....

 

[Danand]

3 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Before you criticize Lamar....

 

To be fair, the only favor the Jets did Darnold was giving him McCown as a mentor. That is an ubelieveable great mentor.

But they threw him for the wolves with a bad cast and he is paying for it.

[DreamKid]

7 minutes ago, Danand said:

To be fair, the only favor the Jets did Darnold was giving him McCown as a mentor. That is an ubelieveable great mentor.

But they threw him for the wolves with a bad cast and he is paying for it.

Yea, but the numbers still paint the picture of a young QB struggling significantly with downfield throws.

Add in that he doesn't bring the Elite running ability Jackson does and I don't get why people are so down on our selection of him.

His mobility keeps his floor higher than all of his peers and any progression beyond that gives us an insanely cheap shot at a QBOTF. With a 33 year old starting QB that clearly has grown injury prone and a Defense that has all the pieces to top the league. Securing a talent like Lamar makes all the sense in the world.

People loved Tyrod, but for some reason knock Lamar. I don't understand it.

Beyond just his skills, Jackson's intangibles also set him apart. He's confident, has a contagious uplifting energy, doesn't let bad plays get to him and holds a monstrous desire to win.

You really couldn't ask for a better Raven's QB prospect with the #32 Pick imo. He's perfect for our past, present, and future. This is a Club that was built on special characters, unique skill sets, and the drive of individuals looking to prove their worth and greatness. Lamar Jackson is all that and more, a true Raven.

[Danand]

I was on the Mayfield wagon and pretty meh on both Rosen and Darnold and I was really really off on the Josh Allen project.

With regard to Tyrod Taylor, he was a 6^th round pick who developed into a starter. For all the love Tyrod has, he also didn’t have the edge/upside in the end to separate him from other QB’s. This upside is still there with Jackson as long as he develop into a better passer.

Now the big difference from Lamar Jackson to Darnold/Rosen is that he was in no way considered ready to start. That’s why he was picked later and considered a more risky prospect. Until mobile quarterbacks have more success in the playoffs, the pocket passers will be rated higher. I feel Lamar Jackson will have to become more of a passer and less of a runner before he will have the success we hope for.

If Jacksons edge as a runner is gone, we don’t have a very good prospect as our new QB. That’s why many are skeptical. Ravens got at great and very interesting prospect at #32 at the right time with a starting quarterback who have become more injury prone. He has to become more like Russell Wilson and less like early RGIII to have longetivity in the league imo.

[SalvadorsDeli]

On 11/19/2018 at 5:59 PM, DreamKid said:

So you're giving our coaches the benefit of the doubt?    

lol

 

Yea it's on them. Personally I'm happy Hayden Hurst isn't attracting more targets than Mark Andrews. The coaches have had him running 6 yard hitches. Flacco throwing to him would've been a waste. Hayden's AVG Target Distance is 8.3 Yards. 

Only recently has his quality of routes given improved, and it's still no where close to where it should be. When we moved to our #2s against the Panthers and Hayden got the primary routes, he caught a 22 Yard TD. Against the steelers coming out of halftime, when we wanted to actually make a point of getting the ball to Hayden on 1 of his 11 routes. He burned the LB on him for a 21 Yard Catch. 

Hurst is a good player with an exceptionally valuable skill set. It's the utilization of him that's been the problem. With Jackson starting for a couple games, expectations need to be tempered too. Lamar has good chemistry with Hayden, but at this point in his development he lacks the ability to strike on tight window throws downfield. Something I don't fault him for, he's a Rookie. Until Flacco comes back, the true potential of a weapon like Hurst will be unmet. 

Asking/expecting Lamar to make a throw like this to take advantage of our Tight Ends would be unfair and stupid.

 

 

Hopefully Lamar's ability to suck those LBs up in inside will be taken advantage of and we'll get Andrews and Hurst to provide some big open targets downfield for the kid, but I doubt that will happen. I'm expecting a 5-10% slide to more spread concepts against the Raiders but largely the same approach with Lamar as the Cinci game.

This is all pretty compelling! I hope you're right tbh and that this is just coming down to bad coaching/utilization, because that certainly makes him more salvageable particularly in a new offense/system.