Training Camp Thread

[lomaxgrUK]

Our 1st team Offense and Defense played something like a combined 13 snaps the other night; let's not overreact guys. And yes, I would be saying (and have said) the same if we perform well.

The preseason is much more about getting rid of the rust for most of our 1st teamers and even more about forming the backups and Special Team contributors. I think we're much better off placing our emphasis on players who had ample opportunity to show themselves.

The Paxton Lynch criticism in my opinion is fully justified. He just doesn't have a feel for the game at all. I think the tweet by Joel Dreessen re: Paxton's 1st throw (the INT) sums it up:

"2 x 2 formation with slants on each side. The inside routes are dead. Supposed to clear passing lane for outside guys. NEVER throw the inside slant. They even put him in the shotgun for it. I don’t like piling on, but he can’t play."

A rookie making this kind of mental mistake in his 1st ever play at practice would get chewed out for this. How can a 3rd year QB be making this kind of mental error? For me, I would cut him now and move on. Why bother wasting another snap on him when the guy isn't making this team (or any team, for that matter).

If I get the chance, I will go back and re-watch the 2's and 3's to review players on the roster bubble. Unfortunately, gamepassEU doesn't have All-22 for preseason games.

[broncos67]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Little over reaction here, but I love the real take.The Broncos are not a playoff team right now. They've got some decent talent going forward, but it's clear some really bad draft classes have left them thin at starting talent and the depth is really an issue.

Vance Joseph is a trash HC as well which is the bigger issues. He just looks like a guy in over his head out there. Sticking with him was a mistake they will need to correct around midseason when the team quits on him. Elway has completely mis-managed that situation it's looking like.

I disagree about Vance. Granted, Elway should have never hired him. Not many people were keen on that hiring. That said, Elway had to stick with Joseph optically given some of the HC churn over the past few years. There was very real criticism that Elway's drafting was beyond subpar. The draft class this year was a strong one, and he went out and got a QB for Joseph. That sort of quells that criticism (especially because the NFL is a what have you done for me lately league) so if Joseph struggles, Elway can cut bait without the optics issue. Frankly, I expect Joseph to be gone anyway, but Elway needed some cover to do it.

[Royal_VT]

26 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

I disagree about Vance. Granted, Elway should have never hired him. Not many people were keen on that hiring. That said, Elway had to stick with Joseph optically given some of the HC churn over the past few years. There was very real criticism that Elway's drafting was beyond subpar. The draft class this year was a strong one, and he went out and got a QB for Joseph. That sort of quells that criticism (especially because the NFL is a what have you done for me lately league) so if Joseph struggles, Elway can cut bait without the optics issue. Frankly, I expect Joseph to be gone anyway, but Elway needed some cover to do it.

Something I think we often overlook is after someone gets fired or cut, who would we replace them with as a realistic option? It is very easy to say someone should lose their job (Lynch, Vance probably deserving), but I think the Front Office sometimes might not make the move because there isn't a better alternative out there. Are we thinking Musgrave is a good option at Head Coach?

[champ11]

11 minutes ago, Royal_VT said:

Something I think we often overlook is after someone gets fired or cut, who would we replace them with as a realistic option? It is very easy to say someone should lose their job (Lynch, Vance probably deserving), but I think the Front Office sometimes might not make the move because there isn't a better alternative out there. Are we thinking Musgrave is a good option at Head Coach?

Yeah, I made that argument this offseason. We straight up weren't an attractive candidate after the season. I think Elway needed to revamp the team's stock and put a competent offense out there and will probably chase a top candidate this coming offseason.

But, yeah, the Joseph hiring and Lynch pick have been pretty catastrophic for the organization directly and from an opportunity cost perspective. 

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

Something I think we often overlook is after someone gets fired or cut, who would we replace them with as a realistic option? It is very easy to say someone should lose their job (Lynch, Vance probably deserving), but I think the Front Office sometimes might not make the move because there isn't a better alternative out there. Are we thinking Musgrave is a good option at Head Coach?

Musgrave has considerably more experience than Vance. He has never been given a chance as a HC. That's likely for a reason, but I would have no issue rolling the dice on him as interm coach and seeing if he can surprisingly transition from QB centric coach to a capable HC. I would be money on there being a higher chance Musgrave shows out well as an interm coach than Vance showing out this season as the HC. Likely that neither come true, but if forced to bet, I take Bill. Vance is a freaking dolt.

[MakeDenverGreatAgain]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Little over reaction here, but I love the real take.The Broncos are not a playoff team right now. They've got some decent talent going forward, but it's clear some really bad draft classes have left them thin at starting talent and the depth is really an issue.

Vance Joseph is a trash HC as well which is the bigger issues. He just looks like a guy in over his head out there. Sticking with him was a mistake they will need to correct around midseason when the team quits on him. Elway has completely mis-managed that situation it's looking like.

I really don't think it's an overreaction at all. I just don't think that this team is built for sustained success at this point. That may change depending on how some players develop, but I think that we're far away from contending for AFC West titles let alone Super Bowls. The biggest issue was that this team didn't have to rebuild after Tebow because the second best QB of all time was recruited by Elway, and free agents took team-friendly deals to play alongside Manning. The team won, and Elways legend grew, and not because he has a keen eye for drafting talent. In fact, aside from Von and signing Chris Harris as a UDFA, he's been atrocious, and one of the worst drafting GMs in football. This has set us back mightily, because we haven't had an infusion of impact players on Rookie deals.

I also don't value Case Keenum as a franchise cornerstone. I think he can have limited success, but his skill set doesn't translate to being a top 10 QB over time. He's a rich-man's Kyle Orton, and I think he will struggle behind our offensive line, which is the biggest question mark on this team. A lot will depend on f Veldheer stays healthy and Bolles develops, and if either gets hurt we are going to struggle mightily. Our receivers are the strength of our offense, but that doesn't matter if Keenum doesn't have time to get them the ball in space.

I also think that they should have brought in a veteran tail back to compete. There's no doubt Royce Freeman is the bell-cow, but we're talking about a guy that had a TON of carries in college, and may have limited tread on the tires. Devontae Booker may be cut (doubtful since he has more carries than every back on the roster combined), but behind him we're talking about guys that have never played in the NFL. 

The real worry for me right now is our defense. Players like Shelby Harris have been good rotational players, but we still don't have any impact players with their hands in the ground. Wolfe has been overrated by fans and has health concers, and Gotsis has talent but can't diagnose and shed, and Peko is the wrong side of 35. I also wasn't a fan of the Chubb pick at 5 because I don't see him as an explosive 3-4 outside linebacker. In fact, I see him more as Demarcus Walker than I do Von Miller. A player that can be solid in the 3-4, and versatile in the Nickel, but not someone that will put up 12+ sacks. Shane Ray is a bust at this point, and I didn't like the pick when it was made but you can't deny the value of where they got him at. I think Shaq Barrett is the second best OLB on the team.

Brandon Marshall is washed at this point and has steadily declined, and Todd Davis is who he is. A thumper that can't cover and will be replaced by Sua Cravens on passing downs, another guy that hasn't played an NFL game in over 15 months.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic. The AFC West is a crap shoot right now, with LA being the obvious favorite. I don't like what Gruden is doing in Oakland, and Mahomes is a boom or bust gunslinger. I think that Denver can finish in 2nd place with 8-9 wins, but also in the cellar with 4-6 wins. 

[big_palooka]

36 minutes ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

I really don't think it's an overreaction at all. I just don't think that this team is built for sustained success at this point. That may change depending on how some players develop, but I think that we're far away from contending for AFC West titles let alone Super Bowls. The biggest issue was that this team didn't have to rebuild after Tebow because the second best QB of all time was recruited by Elway, and free agents took team-friendly deals to play alongside Manning. The team won, and Elways legend grew, and not because he has a keen eye for drafting talent. In fact, aside from Von and signing Chris Harris as a UDFA, he's been atrocious, and one of the worst drafting GMs in football. This has set us back mightily, because we haven't had an infusion of impact players on Rookie deals.

I also don't value Case Keenum as a franchise cornerstone. I think he can have limited success, but his skill set doesn't translate to being a top 10 QB over time. He's a rich-man's Kyle Orton, and I think he will struggle behind our offensive line, which is the biggest question mark on this team. A lot will depend on f Veldheer stays healthy and Bolles develops, and if either gets hurt we are going to struggle mightily. Our receivers are the strength of our offense, but that doesn't matter if Keenum doesn't have time to get them the ball in space.

I also think that they should have brought in a veteran tail back to compete. There's no doubt Royce Freeman is the bell-cow, but we're talking about a guy that had a TON of carries in college, and may have limited tread on the tires. Devontae Booker may be cut (doubtful since he has more carries than every back on the roster combined), but behind him we're talking about guys that have never played in the NFL. 

The real worry for me right now is our defense. Players like Shelby Harris have been good rotational players, but we still don't have any impact players with their hands in the ground. Wolfe has been overrated by fans and has health concers, and Gotsis has talent but can't diagnose and shed, and Peko is the wrong side of 35. I also wasn't a fan of the Chubb pick at 5 because I don't see him as an explosive 3-4 outside linebacker. In fact, I see him more as Demarcus Walker than I do Von Miller. A player that can be solid in the 3-4, and versatile in the Nickel, but not someone that will put up 12+ sacks. Shane Ray is a bust at this point, and I didn't like the pick when it was made but you can't deny the value of where they got him at. I think Shaq Barrett is the second best OLB on the team.

Brandon Marshall is washed at this point and has steadily declined, and Todd Davis is who he is. A thumper that can't cover and will be replaced by Sua Cravens on passing downs, another guy that hasn't played an NFL game in over 15 months.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic. The AFC West is a crap shoot right now, with LA being the obvious favorite. I don't like what Gruden is doing in Oakland, and Mahomes is a boom or bust gunslinger. I think that Denver can finish in 2nd place with 8-9 wins, but also in the cellar with 4-6 wins. 

Refreshing to see a realistic take from a fan. I agree with most this. I don't think the Broncos are winning more than 4-6 games this season. I think Keenum will struggle with consistency behind a suspect Oline and their isn't a decent running game to take pressure off him. 

Defense looks like it's taken a step back and I agree, Chubb isn't best suited as a 3-4 OLB. But he will do his thing. He's a talented guy. Secondary looks to have some holes. I don't buy Roby filling Talib's cleats and don't see a 3rd corner who can't be tested.

[BroncosFan2010]

On another note, I am optimistic about the AJ Johnson signing. The kid was put through hell and now has to be labeled as 'acquitted from rape' when it should read 'falsely accused of rape'. Regardless, he was a nice prospect a few years ago and with our weak ILB talent pool he could surprise. Rooting for him.

[1234567]

 

5 hours ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

I really don't think it's an overreaction at all. I just don't think that this team is built for sustained success at this point. That may change depending on how some players develop, but I think that we're far away from contending for AFC West titles let alone Super Bowls. The biggest issue was that this team didn't have to rebuild after Tebow because the second best QB of all time was recruited by Elway, and free agents took team-friendly deals to play alongside Manning. The team won, and Elways legend grew, and not because he has a keen eye for drafting talent. In fact, aside from Von and signing Chris Harris as a UDFA, he's been atrocious, and one of the worst drafting GMs in football. This has set us back mightily, because we haven't had an infusion of impact players on Rookie deals.

I also don't value Case Keenum as a franchise cornerstone. I think he can have limited success, but his skill set doesn't translate to being a top 10 QB over time. He's a rich-man's Kyle Orton, and I think he will struggle behind our offensive line, which is the biggest question mark on this team. A lot will depend on f Veldheer stays healthy and Bolles develops, and if either gets hurt we are going to struggle mightily. Our receivers are the strength of our offense, but that doesn't matter if Keenum doesn't have time to get them the ball in space.

I also think that they should have brought in a veteran tail back to compete. There's no doubt Royce Freeman is the bell-cow, but we're talking about a guy that had a TON of carries in college, and may have limited tread on the tires. Devontae Booker may be cut (doubtful since he has more carries than every back on the roster combined), but behind him we're talking about guys that have never played in the NFL. 

The real worry for me right now is our defense. Players like Shelby Harris have been good rotational players, but we still don't have any impact players with their hands in the ground. Wolfe has been overrated by fans and has health concers, and Gotsis has talent but can't diagnose and shed, and Peko is the wrong side of 35. I also wasn't a fan of the Chubb pick at 5 because I don't see him as an explosive 3-4 outside linebacker. In fact, I see him more as Demarcus Walker than I do Von Miller. A player that can be solid in the 3-4, and versatile in the Nickel, but not someone that will put up 12+ sacks. Shane Ray is a bust at this point, and I didn't like the pick when it was made but you can't deny the value of where they got him at. I think Shaq Barrett is the second best OLB on the team.

Brandon Marshall is washed at this point and has steadily declined, and Todd Davis is who he is. A thumper that can't cover and will be replaced by Sua Cravens on passing downs, another guy that hasn't played an NFL game in over 15 months.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just realistic. The AFC West is a crap shoot right now, with LA being the obvious favorite. I don't like what Gruden is doing in Oakland, and Mahomes is a boom or bust gunslinger. I think that Denver can finish in 2nd place with 8-9 wins, but also in the cellar with 4-6 wins. 

I think my biggest concern in truth with this teams isn't the talent. It's the coaching. I mean, my god.. Some of the plays our offensive and defensive coaches called that night were literally the WORST possible formations/plays/blitzes you could have possibly called up in those situations. They literally set our players up to fail. Even in the McDaniels era, I don't recall seeing our team so thoroughly out coached as they have been over the last 12 months. McDaniel's problem wasn't X's and O's. He was a horrific evaluator of talent, and completely stripped our team of it. But what we have right now is a pure football IQ issue. Hate to say it, but I don't see this team winning more than 6-8 games this season.  

[champ11]

I feel like BP came in here expecting us to be upset by Broncos are going to suck predictions and I think most of us are on board with those lol 

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

I think my biggest concern in truth with this teams isn't the talent. It's the coaching. I mean, my god.. Some of the plays our offensive and defensive coaches called that night were literally the WORST possible formations/plays/blitzes you could have possibly called up in those situations. They literally set our players up to fail. Even in the McDaniels era, I don't recall seeing our team so thoroughly out coached as they have been over the last 12 months. McDaniel's problem wasn't X's and O's. He was a horrific evaluator of talent, and completely stripped our team of it. But what we have right now is a pure football IQ issue. Hate to say it, but I don't see this team winning more than 6-8 games this season.  

The coaching is a huge issue, but look at our talent base compared to Minny. Granted, they may be the most talented team in the NFL right now, but just a few years ago that was us. And even with the expected post-Super Bowl FA departures, we should be in far, far better shape.

Minnesota is literally better than us in every aspect. Top to bottom, coach to depth, QB to kicker. The only positional group we can challenge is ST due to King being absolutely amazing. They have a better QB, better RB talent, better WR talent, better TE talent, better DL talent, better LB talent, better DB talent, comparably bad OL talent, better coaching and much better depth. There is just no talent comparison to the Vikings, and that shouldn't be the case so soon after we won a Super Bowl. This team has just been poorly managed since that ship'. We are looking more like a Tampa Bay type one-chip then muddled in a decade plus of mediocracy than the other recent winners of the trophy who win, and even with big losses remain competitive.

That isn't us right now. We are simply not a very talented team. Our WR stable is the strength on offense, but the guys are aging. Our QB is a one year wonder, old and likely to regress once removed from the insane talent base in Minny, our RB's are rookies or suck (Booker), our TE's are rookies or suck (Heuerman), our starting OL may be middling-to-good if things fit but the depth is putrid, DL isn't anything special with few young guys showing potential, ILB is a mess albeit Jewell looked nice, CB3 is a huge hole, Safety looks nice and deep and EDGE is deep (Albeit I wont stop complaining about the Chubb pick). The depth across the board outside EDGE and S is below league average IMO, arguably our DL depth is decent but then again the starters aren't all that great so its a bit of a wash.

IMO its going to be a longer year than anyone will care to admit at this point. I will keep watching because win or lose, this is my team. But overall I wish I had a young QB to watch and excite me for the future and give me respite from what I assume to be a bad year either way. Honestly, I wont root for it but a poor start by Vance and Case followed by the firing of Vance and throwing of Chad Kelly into the fire would be about as interesting and good for our long term outlook as this season realistically can get IMO.

[germ-x]

2 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

The coaching is a huge issue, but look at our talent base compared to Minny. Granted, they may be the most talented team in the NFL right now, but just a few years ago that was us. And even with the expected post-Super Bowl FA departures, we should be in far, far better shape.

Minnesota is literally better than us in every aspect. Top to bottom, coach to depth, QB to kicker. The only positional group we can challenge is ST due to King being absolutely amazing. They have a better QB, better RB talent, better WR talent, better TE talent, better DL talent, better LB talent, better DB talent, comparably bad OL talent, better coaching and much better depth. There is just no talent comparison to the Vikings, and that shouldn't be the case so soon after we won a Super Bowl. This team has just been poorly managed since that ship'. We are looking more like a Tampa Bay type one-chip then muddled in a decade plus of mediocracy than the other recent winners of the trophy who win, and even with big losses remain competitive.

That isn't us right now. We are simply not a very talented team. Our WR stable is the strength on offense, but the guys are aging. Our QB is a one year wonder, old and likely to regress once removed from the insane talent base in Minny, our RB's are rookies or suck (Booker), our TE's are rookies or suck (Heuerman), our starting OL may be middling-to-good if things fit but the depth is putrid, DL isn't anything special with few young guys showing potential, ILB is a mess albeit Jewell looked nice, CB3 is a huge hole, Safety looks nice and deep and EDGE is deep (Albeit I wont stop complaining about the Chubb pick). The depth across the board outside EDGE and S is below league average IMO, arguably our DL depth is decent but then again the starters aren't all that great so its a bit of a wash.

IMO its going to be a longer year than anyone will care to admit at this point. I will keep watching because win or lose, this is my team. But overall I wish I had a young QB to watch and excite me for the future and give me respite from what I assume to be a bad year either way. Honestly, I wont root for it but a poor start by Vance and Case followed by the firing of Vance and throwing of Chad Kelly into the fire would be about as interesting and good for our long term outlook as this season realistically can get IMO.

I think this is an overly pessimistic look at the talent.  Not to say Denver is loaded, but I’m still of the belief that with slightly above average QB play (which I question Denver gets from Keenum) Denver is firmly in the hunt for the playoffs.

[MakeDenverGreatAgain]

Can I ask what makes you think that we're decent QB play away from a playoff run? It wouldn't surprise me, but we're talking about a team that has significantly more holes than just at QB, and who went 2-10 to end last season including losing 8 straight and who didn't exactly add any premier impact players aside from Keenum (who I would argue is neither). 

 

[big_palooka]

On 8/14/2018 at 9:47 AM, broncos67 said:

I disagree about Vance. Granted, Elway should have never hired him. Not many people were keen on that hiring. That said, Elway had to stick with Joseph optically given some of the HC churn over the past few years. There was very real criticism that Elway's drafting was beyond subpar. The draft class this year was a strong one, and he went out and got a QB for Joseph. That sort of quells that criticism (especially because the NFL is a what have you done for me lately league) so if Joseph struggles, Elway can cut bait without the optics issue. Frankly, I expect Joseph to be gone anyway, but Elway needed some cover to do it.

Keenum is not the QB you get for a HC. You get a guy like Rosen. Keenum is just another journey man making a stop in Denver for a stint. 

[jsthomp2007]

2 hours ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

Can I ask what makes you think that we're decent QB play away from a playoff run? It wouldn't surprise me, but we're talking about a team that has significantly more holes than just at QB, and who went 2-10 to end last season including losing 8 straight and who didn't exactly add any premier impact players aside from Keenum (who I would argue is neither). 

 

If you think about it, the Broncos are pretty young team.  I like the nucleus that the Broncos have to build on, including Chad Kelly (there was a pass to Patrick, where Chad really had to thread the needle on...I couldn't think of five QBs in the league who could have made that pass).  I like Royce, the two young WRs.  I like the offensive line pieces. I like Chubb, the CBs, and the rest of the secondary.  There could be upgrades at RT (Velderheer seems like a stopgap).  I hope the AJ Johnson signing gives us a good ILB tandem in Jewell.  We could even suggest that Vance is a young coach, but so is the LA Rams coach and he had no problems with play calls and such...so, there are a few pieces that needed some fix'n...but I like these the direction that this team could go...and I think a lot of it is centered around Chad, if he can live up to the hype.