Training Camp Thread

[big_palooka]

21 hours ago, champ11 said:

I feel like BP came in here expecting us to be upset by Broncos are going to suck predictions and I think most of us are on board with those lol 

lol... it's refreshing honestly. I hate the "our team is going to be great" stuff this time of year. I'm down on the Broncos this year. Vance is garbage and shouldn't have been retained. You delay the inevitable with him and set your team back a bit. It was obvious in the preseason game one team (Vikings) came out to get after it and the other was almost going through the motions. Didn't look as well coached and ready for action. 

Keenum is who he's always been IMO. He won't have an all star cast around him now and will fall back being a middle of the road QB who you want to replace. Some nice pieces to build around, but you have to have a HC and QB to win in this league. 

[big_palooka]

18 hours ago, germ-x said:

I think this is an overly pessimistic look at the talent.  Not to say Denver is loaded, but I’m still of the belief that with slightly above average QB play (which I question Denver gets from Keenum) Denver is firmly in the hunt for the playoffs.

Far more likely Denver goes 4-12 than makes the playoffs. Keenum is average and his Oline and ground game will put him in a tough spot to be above average.

AFC West right now, you have to look at coaches and QBs. Denver is the worst in both spots. You're not going anywhere with Vance/Keenum.

[1234567]

Just now, big_palooka said:

lol... it's refreshing honestly. I hate the "our team is going to be great" stuff this time of year. I'm down on the Broncos this year. Vance is garbage and shouldn't have been retained. You delay the inevitable with him and set your team back a bit. It was obvious in the preseason game one team (Vikings) came out to get after it and the other was almost going through the motions. Didn't look as well coached and ready for action. 

Keenum is who he's always been IMO. He won't have an all star cast around him now and will fall back being a middle of the road QB who you want to replace. Some nice pieces to build around, but you have to have a HC and QB to win in this league. 

All true points. Whats going to be really irritating is watching how much the 49ers will undoubtedly improve over the next 1-2 seasons and having to swallow that Kyle should have been our coach. But Elway wanted a yes man, so VJ is who we got instead. 

[MakeDenverGreatAgain]

17 minutes ago, 1234567 said:

All true points. Whats going to be really irritating is watching how much the 49ers will undoubtedly improve over the next 1-2 seasons and having to swallow that Kyle should have been our coach. But Elway wanted a yes man, so VJ is who we got instead. 

IMO Elway may be on his way out if this team wins less than 9 games this year. The post-Manning sample size is enough to see that his approach hasn't worked, and a new vision is necessary. 

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

IMO Elway may be on his way out if this team wins less than 9 games this year. The post-Manning sample size is enough to see that his approach hasn't worked, and a new vision is necessary. 

9 games would be quite a feat given this teams talent base, coach and QB. We have arguably the worst talent base in our division, objectively the worst coach and likely the worst QB, or at the very least the least dynamic. I don't think the historic trend of older-one-year-wonder QB's returning back to earth can be overstated. It ALWAYS happens. Case is now on a team with far less explosive offensive weapons. He is going to be around the 20-25th best QB in the league. Not going to bottom out, but he wont be taking us anywhere.

[3Amigos_FOREVER]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Far more likely Denver goes 4-12 than makes the playoffs. Keenum is average and his Oline and ground game will put him in a tough spot to be above average.

AFC West right now, you have to look at coaches and QBs. Denver is the worst in both spots. You're not going anywhere with Vance/Keenum.

To be fair, I don't think anyone can definitively say Mahomes or Carr are better than Keenum at this point.  Mahomes has loads of potential, but hasn't done it yet.  Carr has gotten progressively worse over the past 3 seasons or so and based on recent performance, Keenum was the better player in the most recent season they've played.  Definitely fair to question the contract Carr got, especially if he takes yet another step back this season.

[big_palooka]

Just now, 3Amigos_FOREVER said:

To be fair, I don't think anyone can definitively say Mahomes or Carr are better than Keenum at this point.  Mahomes has loads of potential, but hasn't done it yet.  Carr has gotten progressively worse over the past 3 seasons or so and based on recent performance, Keenum was the better player in the most recent season they've played.  Definitely fair to question the contract Carr got, especially if he takes yet another step back this season.

Carr was an MVP candidate in 2016. Then played with a break in his back last season and an all time awful offensive scheme.

Regardless, I know both those QBs have more talent than Keenum and better coaches around them.

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, 1234567 said:

All true points. Whats going to be really irritating is watching how much the 49ers will undoubtedly improve over the next 1-2 seasons and having to swallow that Kyle should have been our coach. But Elway wanted a yes man, so VJ is who we got instead. 

Still can't believe that given The Shananhan's connection with Elway. It was too easy and Elways overthought it. Missed out on what's looking like a hell of a coach. 

[germ-x]

5 hours ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

Can I ask what makes you think that we're decent QB play away from a playoff run? It wouldn't surprise me, but we're talking about a team that has significantly more holes than just at QB, and who went 2-10 to end last season including losing 8 straight and who didn't exactly add any premier impact players aside from Keenum (who I would argue is neither). 

 

1. Denver still has one of the best defenses in the game.  It’s also not like it’s some aged out unit on the decline.  The defense is still quite young with only 2 starters 30+ years old in Peko and Stewart.  The unit also has respectable young depth across the board.

2.  I know Thomas and Sanders are in their 30s, but their far from scrubs, which gives Denver 2 go to WRs who can make plays.  Throw in Sutton (who may be the best WR out of that draft class) and Denver has the weapons in the passing game to be successful throwing the ball.  

3.  The OL isn’t as bad as it’s made out to be.  The majority of NFL OLs suck.  Aside from the Raiders in the AFC West there isn’t much separating the Broncos, Chargers, Chiefs in talent along the OL and NFL wide aside from the handful of teams with elite OLs, Denver’s OL talent isn’t staggeringly depleted compared to NFL average. There’s also reason to think it’ll be improved upon from last year.  One should expect Bolles to improve from year 1 to year 2.  Leary is back at LG, where he’s at his best.  Paradis is 100% healthy after 2 hip surgeries.  McGovern should’ve started last season.  Veldheer even if he’s below average is better than what was at RT.  Factor in a more mobile and experienced QB who will be able to mask some of the OL deficiencies and I think we see improved play from this unit.

4.  No doubt, RB and TE look shaky.  Just very little experience and what experience that’s there hasn’t been productive.  Though, I like both prospects that will get a lot of playing time.  Butt has a chance to be an above average all around player.  Royce Freeman may be the physically most talented back this organization has had since Portis.  

5.  All comes down to QB, to be honest.  I’m with you too, I don’t think Keenum is the answer.  But the notion that Denver is this talentless team with holes all over the place is a bit over the top, IMO.

 

[jsthomp2007]

15 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Carr was an MVP candidate in 2016. Then played with a break in his back last season and an all time awful offensive scheme.

Regardless, I know both those QBs have more talent than Keenum and better coaches around them.

Yeeaaah but Keenum was one of two four QBs in the league playing in a conference championship game.  Last time I checked Mahomes haven't really come close to that.  Also, I am not sure about talent either...I think Keenum holds the NCAA record for most passing yards, or something like that....so I think there is some talent there.  However, how do you compare Chad Kelly to Mahomes and Carr...if Kelly hadn't been injured coming out of Ole Miss with he off field issues, is he still a round 7 QB?  Kelly is the QB that intrigues me the most...there were a few passes he made this last weekend that I don't think many QBs could have made...including the hit he took for a TD pass...QBs don't stand in the pocket to take their shots anymore.  

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

Yeeaaah but Keenum was one of two four QBs in the league playing in a conference championship game.  Last time I checked Mahomes haven't really come close to that.  Also, I am not sure about talent either...I think Keenum holds the NCAA record for most passing yards, or something like that....so I think there is some talent there. 

Keenum is 30. Last year was the first season he ever passed for over 9 TD. His QB record outside last season is 9-15. His average QB rating, again outside last season, is 78.

He is an elite backup quality QB but as a starter he is bottom 7. The kid will regress and we will all be asking why we didn't predict it. The fact that so many are concentrating on his excellent season with Minny, after a career of mediocracy at best, baffles me. Case had elite weapons and an elite OC/HC, and even then he really wasn't that dynamic last season mostly playing the role of mobile game manager.

Last season Case's 'average completed yards in air' for his passes was 5.2. Siemien was at 6. This is just one of many stats that show his success came from a quick strike, 'get the ball to the weapons and let them roll' type offense. He also had an impressive 10th most 'time to throw', indicating the Minny OL isn't as bad at pass-pro as many are arguing. Albeit this stat may not remove scrambling time.

Make no mistake, we got a Kyle Orton level talent in Case, but with better wheels. I was an Orton defender, but our expectations must be realistic. If Case plays as a top 16 QB, it will be a coup. I just don't foresee that happening. He really isn't that good.

[7DnBrnc53]

1 hour ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

The kid will regress and we will all be asking why we didn't predict it.

I hate to say it, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Keenum regresses. I wouldn't have signed him in the first place. I would rather have gone into this season with Osweiler and Kelly as the QB's (getting Darnold would have been nice as well, but it didn't work out).

[AnAngryAmerican]

20 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Keenum is not the QB you get for a HC. You get a guy like Rosen. Keenum is just another journey man making a stop in Denver for a stint. 

It's an interesting debate.

One, if you get Keenum, who has a proven track record (albeit only one season) of success as a game-manager type QB, then, with a supporting cast that includes a solid defense, some talent outside and a commitment to the running game, there is no excuses for failure. If we have another 6 or fewer win season, Vance can be promptly shown the door with Elway saying, "I gave him enough pieces, let him hire his own coaching staff, and he couldn't even turn in a .500 season." 

Two, if you draft a rookie, you almost give Vance a mulligan for this year. Most rookies, even polished ones like Rosen who have experience in a pro set, have ups and downs their rookie year. Remember even the great Peyton Manning threw 28 interceptions his rookie year after having a phenomenal career at Tennessee. Then Vance would have an "excuse" that he couldn't be expected to turn in a playoff season with a rookie QB who needed the year to adjust to the NFL. 

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

I hate to say it, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Keenum regresses. I wouldn't have signed him in the first place. I would rather have gone into this season with Osweiler and Kelly as the QB's (getting Darnold would have been nice as well, but it didn't work out).

I mean, how could he not regress? Historically QB's that have been journeymen their entire careers don't just magically transform themselves from backup caliber to 95+ QB rated starters. It simply doesn't happen. For this reason, and many more, saying that Case overachieved last season w/ elite talent and coaching is a far stronger argument than calling him a late bloomer.

He may be some sort of anomaly, a guy that looked backup quality for his entire career then suddenly has a great year under ideal circumstances, only to leave that situation for worse circumstances and somehow retain his newfound starting caliber play. But that just seems so far fetched.

Take Fitz in 2016 for example. We all were banging the tables for him because he had a single excellent season in NYJ. I said that whole time that he wasn't worth it, citing the above. Mediocre QB's that have a single great season always come back to earth. And what did Fitz do the next season? He came back to earth. And Fitz is a guy with a far more impressive pedigree, more starting experience, more physical talent and a better arm.

We made a horrible decision to sign Case for his contract. We could have had Teddy, McCown, or even Brock for pennies on a one year deal if we wanted stopgap. We could have had Kirk if we wanted a franchise. We split the middle, paying a stopgap near-franchise money and locking it in for 2 seasons. Just the absolute worst path to take. Ask some St. Louis / LAR fans. I can almost already see the Case comet streaking back to earth.

[AnAngryAmerican]

21 hours ago, 1234567 said:

All true points. Whats going to be really irritating is watching how much the 49ers will undoubtedly improve over the next 1-2 seasons and having to swallow that Kyle should have been our coach. But Elway wanted a yes man, so VJ is who we got instead. 

You can say that again. 

It was interesting a year and a half ago when we were in the coaching search. It seemed everyone wanted either Kyle or Dave Toub, with the vast majority wanting Kyle, but no one wanted Vance. But the CU connection between him and a Matt Russell meant an awful lot. Apparently. SMH.