Can You Digg It Sucka (Diggs Signs Extension to Stay a Viking)

[Dr LBC]

9 minutes ago, Krauser said:

So however 99.99% of NFL players feel, I think the local kid playing for his childhood team who gave him a tryout when no one else would and kept him on the roster when no one else would and gave him a long term contract when no one else would, is not likely going to be holding out demanding more money because he outplayed the extension he hasn't even started yet, which he asked for in the first place. 

Yeah.  This last paragraph is disingenuous and i think if you were looking at it objectively you'd see it that way too.

Now I'll admit to not having read into whether Thielen's said that he got any other camp offers or not, but if it hasn't been specifically said, there is no grounds to say that because he chose to sign with his local team, that he grew up rooting for, and who really didn't have many impetuses on the depth chart that would have him believing he couldn't carve himself out a spot (30-year-old Greg Jennings being the only WR of any repute on the team and then-1st-round-pick Cordarelle Patterson being the closest thing).  Everything that I've read has said that Thielen chose to attend the tryout at Winter Park - again being logical since he was from Detroit Lakes and went to Minnesota State, and 99% of players who choose to attend rookie tryouts do so in their local market because, unless their agent has an in with a particular GM or front office and is willing to foot the bill for a plane ticket, they're on their own dime to get themselves to that tryout (a player who, for instance, grew up in Elkhorn, Wisconsin and played at UW-Whitewhater is almost certainly going to attend a rookie tryout with the Packers).  It's misleading to intimate that had he chosen to attend a different tryout in a different location that he wouldn't have been offered a roster spot, then a practice squad spot, and later a roster spot again.

It's also completely disingenuous to say that the team offered him a long-term contract when no one else would.  What they did was offered him a long-term contract when no other team would offer him the kind of money that they felt the Vikings wouldn't match AND give up a 2nd round pick on top of that.  That's a stark difference from "no one else was willing to offer him a long-term contract."

[Soko]

1 hour ago, Krauser said:

Thielen could've played out his one year RFA deal for 2017 and hit the UFA market this spring, and after putting 1276 yards on 91 receptions, he would've been in line for a Landry/Watkins style deal. Instead, Thielen had his agent ask the Vikings last March for a long-term extension: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/03/08/wr-adam-thielen-seeks-respect-with-new-vikings-deal-as-rfa/98930898/

And the Vikings obliged

You can’t honestly be trying to say that Thielen seeking a long term deal after being tendered was somehow doing the team a favor? If Thielen had a crystal ball that told him exactly what kind of season he’d have, he’d have waited a season and been franchised or gotten a mega deal. The man wanted security while the iron was getting warm and the Vikings granted it to him. 

Anyways, I appreciate the excerpt, you’re certainly very into his history. Still doesn’t really change the fact that at this point he doesn’t owe them anything anymore. Or really never did at all. They didn’t do him any personal favors, they picked the best football players to make the roster. 

Does that translate to a hold out? Obviously not, but if it came down to team vs money...well, chances are he’d go the way most guys go.

[Krauser]

5 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

You can’t honestly be trying to say that Thielen seeking a long term deal after being tendered was somehow doing the team a favor? If Thielen had a crystal ball that told him exactly what kind of season he’d have, he’d have waited a season and been franchised or gotten a mega deal. The man wanted security while the iron was getting warm and the Vikings granted it to him. 

"The Vikings obliged" as in they did what he wanted, offered him a long term deal. He could've bet on himself, but as you say he wanted security and the Vikings granted it to him. We're in agreement here. 

6 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Does that translate to a hold out? Obviously not,

This was the point I made that was being objected to. He's not going to hold out.

The Vikings will offer him an extension early, because he's outplayed his current deal, and that's the approach they've taken for core players like recently Griffen and Joseph with extensions that are excellent precedents for Thielen. He'll be offered more money up front from the signing bonus and more guaranteed money. With a choice of either signing that or holding out for 2 years of his prime, he'll sign it. 

 

37 minutes ago, The LBC said:

Yeah.  This last paragraph is disingenuous and i think if you were looking at it objectively you'd see it that way too.

Now I'll admit to not having read into whether Thielen's said that he got any other camp offers or not, but if it hasn't been specifically said, there is no grounds to say that because he chose to sign with his local team, that he grew up rooting for, and who really didn't have many impetuses on the depth chart that would have him believing he couldn't carve himself out a spot (30-year-old Greg Jennings being the only WR of any repute on the team and then-1st-round-pick Cordarelle Patterson being the closest thing).  Everything that I've read has said that Thielen chose to attend the tryout at Winter Park - again being logical since he was from Detroit Lakes and went to Minnesota State, and 99% of players who choose to attend rookie tryouts do so in their local market because, unless their agent has an in with a particular GM or front office and is willing to foot the bill for a plane ticket, they're on their own dime to get themselves to that tryout (a player who, for instance, grew up in Elkhorn, Wisconsin and played at UW-Whitewhater is almost certainly going to attend a rookie tryout with the Packers).  It's misleading to intimate that had he chosen to attend a different tryout in a different location that he wouldn't have been offered a roster spot, then a practice squad spot, and later a roster spot again.

It's also completely disingenuous to say that the team offered him a long-term contract when no one else would.  What they did was offered him a long-term contract when no other team would offer him the kind of money that they felt the Vikings wouldn't match AND give up a 2nd round pick on top of that.  That's a stark difference from "no one else was willing to offer him a long-term contract."

I think it's pretty, uh, ingenuous. 

The point is the Vikings made a series of offers to Thielen -- a tryout, a contract, a practice squad spot, a roster spot, a starting spot, a long-term extension -- that were either the only and/or best offers he had available at every step along the way. 

The RFA contract in particular: do you really think that if the league had known last March that Thielen was going to put up nearly 1300 yards receiving in 2017 and be in line for Watkins/Landry money if he'd made it to free agency this summer, that he wouldn't have gotten a single offer?

Brandin Cooks coming off a 1082 yard season on his $8.5M 5th year option was traded for the #23 pick and got a $16M/yr extension before he even played a game for the Rams.

2017 Adam Thielen for $2.7M should've been worth a 2nd round pick to someone last year, at least in retrospect, and should've attracted a long-term contract offer for much more than the $19M/3 the Vikings gave him.

But Thielen didn't want to wait and bet on himself as a UFA in 2018 (which is why he requested the extension), and no other team offered him anything close to the contract people are now suggesting he is going to hold out to demand, and so when the Vikings made the offer they made, he signed it, and signed it happily.  

[Soko]

32 minutes ago, Krauser said:

"The Vikings obliged" as in they did what he wanted, offered him a long term deal. He could've bet on himself, but as you say he wanted security and the Vikings granted it to him. We're in agreement here. 

This was the point I made that was being objected to. He's not going to hold out.

The Vikings will offer him an extension early, because he's outplayed his current deal, and that's the approach they've taken for core players like recently Griffen and Joseph with extensions that are excellent precedents for Thielen. He'll be offered more money up front from the signing bonus and more guaranteed money. With a choice of either signing that or holding out for 2 years of his prime, he'll sign it. 

Sure, if he gets that offer. Which isn’t really a guarantee for a team that has as many guys on the payroll as the Vikings do. 

Thielen holding out for a deal makes a lot of sense before he turns 30.

[Krauser]

5 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Sure, if he gets that offer. Which isn’t really a guarantee for a team that has as many guys on the payroll as the Vikings do. 

Thielen holding out for a deal makes a lot of sense before he turns 30.

If he continues to outplay his current contract, he’ll get that offer. 

If he holds out next year, I’ll come back to this thread and tip my cap to you. 

[Oregon Ducks]

5 hours ago, Kiwibrown said:

What's the difference between him and theilin?

[Soko]

1 hour ago, Krauser said:

If he continues to outplay his current contract, he’ll get that offer. 

If he holds out next year, I’ll come back to this thread and tip my cap to you. 

Shrug. 

We went from a long diatribe about how Thielen owes his career to the Vikings and thus won’t hold out, to him getting an extension (thus not even needing to hold out).

Goal post status: moved.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

I know he is a local kid and loved this team since he was a kid but given all the concussion stuff and guys maybe not playing that long, dont you think he cares more about his family and their well-being and wants to make sure they are taken care of in case his career goes sideways in a medical way

[vike daddy]

A decade after the death of his father, Stefon Diggs paused Tuesday to remember him. The Vikings wide receiver had just signed a five-year, $72 million contract extension that begins in 2019. He talked about a conversation he had with Aron Diggs not long before he died in January 2008 from congestive heart failure at age 37.

Diggs: “It means a lot to me because my dad sat me down a couple months before he passed away. He just told me, ‘Look after your (three) brothers. Look after your mom. Look after your family.’ That meant a lot to me. With this day coming forward, it just came full circle. I have a lot of emotions.’’

Making the day even more emotional was Diggs’ mother, Stephanie Diggs, being on hand after arriving from her home in Maryland, outside of Washington D.C. She attended the morning walkthrough during training camp at TCO Performance Center and then watched her son sign the deal in the afternoon and take the field for practice.

Diggs: “That was the first person I wanted to tell, I called her Monday. I was like, ‘I need you to go get on a plane right now. I need you to come out here. I need you to be a part of this.’ She’s been with me every step of the way, so it was going to be a key part for her to be here.’’

https://www.twincities.com/2018/07/31/vikings-wr-stefon-diggs-signs-lucrative-extension-gets-emotional-remembering-late-father/

[vike daddy]

Cousins: “If he had only one route that jumped out, I don’t think he gets the contract that they offered him. It’s because he can run the entire route tree at a level that would warrant wanting him around. Whether it’s a nine-yard stop route, a double-move, a three-step slant, whether it’s a post, the ability to track the ball, go get the football, play bigger than his frame, he can do just about everything. Great natural hands, good short area quickness and agility, long speed, ability to track the ball in the air very well. He’s a seasoned veteran, understands the game. He’s played in big moments.”

DeFilippo: “Number one is his speed. I think corners in this league have a really hard time knowing that he may run by them on a fade route, so they are going to give him a bit of cushion, which opens up room for quick outs, slants, gives him room to catch and run with the football. He’s strong enough to be able to catch and run with the football, break a tackle and dive into the end zone. So his overall speed and explosiveness is why you see some free access on him in the red zone. I love that guy, he’s exactly what you want in a player — and in my mind, a superstar player. He is smart. He loves football. He’s assignment sound. Coachable. He’s got a lot of energy. Explosive and he catches the football. That describes pretty good receivers in this league.”

http://www.1500espn.com/vikings-2/2018/07/cousins-defilippo-break-makes-stefon-diggs-successful/

 

[Krauser]

4 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Shrug. 

We went from a long diatribe about how Thielen owes his career to the Vikings and thus won’t hold out, to him getting an extension (thus not even needing to hold out).

Goal post status: moved.

You have trouble with reading comprehension? 

The first post of my “diatribe” follows the line about Thielen owing his career to the Vikings by describing the extension I predict the Vikings will offer him next year, and in subsequent posts I’ve repeated the same two points:

• Thielen’s career is unusually strongly tied to the Vikings, so (I predict) he won’t hold out
• the Vikings have a pattern of rewarding players who outplay their contracts by offering more guaranteed money and a signing bonus as part of a new extension signed with 2 years remaining on their current deals. (I predict) they will make Thielen that kind of offer next summer, assuming he stays healthy and continues to produce, so he won’t have to hold out to get rewarded — though the structure of that deal will involve adding an extension of however many additional years beyond his existing contract, not ripping up his existing deal and replacing it with a new one, so the effect on the salary cap will be modest (maybe $2M a year or less in prorated signing bonus). 

Goalposts haven’t moved, I’m making the same prediction now as I did initially  

It’s a fairly specific prediction. If I’m wrong, I’ll come back and admit it. 

[Krauser]

2 hours ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

I know he is a local kid and loved this team since he was a kid but given all the concussion stuff and guys maybe not playing that long, dont you think he cares more about his family and their well-being and wants to make sure they are taken care of in case his career goes sideways in a medical way

The extension Thielen asked for, the additional years and money up front that would go beyond his one year RFA deal, hasn’t even started yet. 

He will have 2 years remaining on his contract as of next summer. I’m predicting the Vikings will offer him an extension that gives him something like $10M in pocket with an additional $10M or so in newly guaranteed money, and a market rate top line (“Thielen signs $58M 4-year extension with $20M guaranteed”). How would signing that not be taking care of his family?

The Vikings have been keeping older homegrown players on the team on contracts that pay market prices for premium players but have with little or no dead money beyond age 30-ish. These are effectively team option years, as the player can be cut or renegotiated if performance and/or usage declined.

We saw that with Brian Robison, who got a 5 year extension in 2013 for $6M AAV. In 2017, Danielle Hunter was expected to be promoted to starting DE ahead of Robison, so Robison’s deal was reworked to $7.5M/2 deal with guaranteed money for the first year. After Robison had his least productive year as a pro in 2017 (at age 34), and with a couple of young backup DEs knocking on the door for more snaps, the Vikings offered him vet minimum this year, take it or leave it. Robison reportedly considered retiring but opted instead to come back for one last year on those terms. 

I predict the Vikings will make similar offers to other core players as they age, including Griffen and Joseph, and Smith and Thielen. Some of them may choose to leave but I expect most of their core players to at least be offered a fair chance to finish their careers in Minnesota. 

[BAConrad]

23 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

Best core locked up in the NFL?

Before like May, Id have said Philly but now that Minnesota has extended Hunter, Diggs, and Kendricks, Id say that they are right there with Philly in terms of best core of players for next 2-3 years locked in. 

Fletcher Cox, Timmy Jernigan, Nigel Bradham, Derek Barnett, Michael Bennett, Malcolm Jenkins, Rodney McLeod, Sidney Jones, Rasul Douglas, Lane Johnson, Brandon Brooks, Jason Kelce, Zach Ertz, Philly Goedert, Alshon Jeffrey, Mack Hollins are all locked up through the 2020 season. And Wentz's 5th year option is for 2020 so you can basically put him there too.

The only "important" upcoming FAs after this year are Ajayi and Darby. Both of whom are probably going to be incredily expendable. Corner went from being our nightmare in Philly just a couple years ago to now being a very talented , deep, and very young positional group. Sidney Jones was IMO the best corner in last years class, and we took a chance on him and it looks like its going to work out very well. He could be the steal of 2017's draft class when he turns into a top 10 #1 corner this season. Then we have Douglas, Maddox, and the always underrated Jalen Mills who is signed through 2019. And Ajayi is nice but unless he comes back for like 2 years at 2-3 million a year, he can go. 

And then Graham and Agholor will be up for new deals in 2019 IIRC. Graham I can see leaving as sad as it would be. But he is more expendable. Agholor I think will get an extension during this season. Something like 4-5 years at 8 million annually. 

Then theres Foles whose extension by Roseman was a genius one, where we basically have an option of keeping him in 2019, or he can leave if he wants but just has to pay back his $3 mil signing bonus, and also is a steal this season where it only pays him something like 7 million base salary, but 14 million in incentives that he hits if , say, he has another magical SB run only starts more reg season games than 3. (Which btw is where Im gonna use this moment to bow down to the God of the Salary Cap aka Howie Roseman, and offer Him my firstborn daughter as tribute). 

So yeah, Id say its debatable either way. We have a much deeper group of guys locked up, literally at every position except RB. Minnesota has most all their big name guys, just not as much depth as we have. Also one key observation is the glaring difference at OL between the two teams. We have 3 guys who are each either the best at their position or top 5, all in their primes in Lane, Brooks, Kelce signed through 2020. Whereas Minnesota  has Reiff, really the only guy I think is a top 10 player on their OL. Remmers maybe....

Either way thats just splitting hairs. Id say no question that Minnesota and Philly are the two teams with the best and deepest cores under contract through 2020 in the NFL. 

The Rams window IMO isnt nearly going to be that long. I see it as this year. Because after that, they will face a ton of uncertainty with their two aging OLineman in Whitworth (37) and Sullivan (32 or 33), without much else besides them up front. As well as a secondary that will likely be without Joyner who I no doubt see leaving in 2019, a big question mark with Peters who I believe should have been extended before Cooks no doubt in my mind, and Talib who is 32 or so and has already been on a significant decline before coming to LA. Shields will be out of the league before this season ends....I know the guy, and happen to know that he is one concussion away from being done. And Suh of course is gonna leave for a big money deal elsewhere. They have their WRs I suppose, a group I like (and I will say I was HUGE on Woods that offseason and was among the few who loved that signing). And their star RB. And of course Goff. But really, they have a ton of uncertainty everywhere else tbh. Even with Donald and Brockers, the rest of that front 7 looks barren. 

Definitely see Minnesota and Philly dominating the NFC for years....LA is SB or bust this season IMO. They made a mistake in choosing to make positions like WR and RB higher priorities than they should while not only failing to lock down the best non QB in the game in Donald, but also letting guys like Joyner basically set to leave in a year, and not resigning Peters who is a 25 or so year old top 3 player at a premium position, and really not setting themselves up long term at all at OL. And New Orleans and Green Bay are two teams I could see being great for years longer as well thanks to each teams' past 2 offseasons in which they really improved their talent in key areas  along with their still elite QBs

 

[Dr LBC]

12 hours ago, Krauser said:

"The Vikings obliged" as in they did what he wanted, offered him a long term deal. He could've bet on himself, but as you say he wanted security and the Vikings granted it to him. We're in agreement here. 

This was the point I made that was being objected to. He's not going to hold out.

The Vikings will offer him an extension early, because he's outplayed his current deal, and that's the approach they've taken for core players like recently Griffen and Joseph with extensions that are excellent precedents for Thielen. He'll be offered more money up front from the signing bonus and more guaranteed money. With a choice of either signing that or holding out for 2 years of his prime, he'll sign it. 

 

I think it's pretty, uh, ingenuous. 

The point is the Vikings made a series of offers to Thielen -- a tryout, a contract, a practice squad spot, a roster spot, a starting spot, a long-term extension -- that were either the only and/or best offers he had available at every step along the way. 

The RFA contract in particular: do you really think that if the league had known last March that Thielen was going to put up nearly 1300 yards receiving in 2017 and be in line for Watkins/Landry money if he'd made it to free agency this summer, that he wouldn't have gotten a single offer?

Brandin Cooks coming off a 1082 yard season on his $8.5M 5th year option was traded for the #23 pick and got a $16M/yr extension before he even played a game for the Rams.

2017 Adam Thielen for $2.7M should've been worth a 2nd round pick to someone last year, at least in retrospect, and should've attracted a long-term contract offer for much more than the $19M/3 the Vikings gave him.

But Thielen didn't want to wait and bet on himself as a UFA in 2018 (which is why he requested the extension), and no other team offered him anything close to the contract people are now suggesting he is going to hold out to demand, and so when the Vikings made the offer they made, he signed it, and signed it happily.  

Again you're making a ton of assumptions off of half-facts.  Moreover, "ingenuous" means something different than you seem to think it was.  You might want to actually look up words before using them.  The word you were looking for was "genuine," which no, it wasn't.

The best offer he had available?  Perhaps in terms of the tryout and the practice squat spot, beyond that you, conveniently, ignore that contractual control prevented him from being able to receive any sort of competitive alternative.

The bit about "if the league had known" is a total strawman.  For one, crystal balls that tell the future don't exist.  So, "if they could have known" is flatly irrelevant.  For another, you continue to ignore the fact that any offer would have had to be an offer that Minnesota would not be willing to match; you're naive if you don't believe this factors into front offices' decisions in whether to tender offers to RFA's.  It's part of the reason we see them so rarely occur - this isn't Madden.

Then you just fall off a factual cliff.  No one... I'll repeat... NO ONE was getting Adam Thielen at the salary of $2.7m for a 2nd round pick in 2017.  That's not how Restricted Free Agency works.  Again, I refer you to the fact that, as the RFA process works, they would have had to extend an offer sheet to Thielen which he would have deemed worthy of signing and which would have been hefty enough that the Vikings would have declined to match before said team would have had to compensate the Vikings with a 2nd round pick.  That's not going to be a $2.7m/yr contract, that's not going to be a $5m/yr contract (because clearly Minnesota had no problem paying him that kind of AAV), that would have been more in the neighborhood of a $10m AAV contract as a floor.  And when you look at what Thielen had produced prior, with no crystal balls to predict the future: One 1000-yard, 5 TD season and otherwise fantastic special teams play, but not much in the way of offensive contributions; most sensible GM's are going to look, in the time prior to the draft (which is when RFA occurs), at a 2nd round pick as being able to bring them a receiver equally as capable of doing that (with as much potential - in a vacuum) as much or more potential do to it repetitively and (here's the important part) for a considerably lower price-point than $10m AAV.

 

[Dr LBC]

1 hour ago, BAConrad said:

The Rams window IMO isnt nearly going to be that long. I see it as this year. Because after that, they will face a ton of uncertainty with their two aging OLineman in Whitworth (37) and Sullivan (32 or 33), without much else besides them up front. As well as a secondary that will likely be without Joyner who I no doubt see leaving in 2019, a big question mark with Peters who I believe should have been extended before Cooks no doubt in my mind, and Talib who is 32 or so and has already been on a significant decline before coming to LA. Shields will be out of the league before this season ends....I know the guy, and happen to know that he is one concussion away from being done. And Suh of course is gonna leave for a big money deal elsewhere. They have their WRs I suppose, a group I like (and I will say I was HUGE on Woods that offseason and was among the few who loved that signing). And their star RB. And of course Goff. But really, they have a ton of uncertainty everywhere else tbh. Even with Donald and Brockers, the rest of that front 7 looks barren. 

Definitely see Minnesota and Philly dominating the NFC for years....LA is SB or bust this season IMO. They made a mistake in choosing to make positions like WR and RB higher priorities than they should while not only failing to lock down the best non QB in the game in Donald, but also letting guys like Joyner basically set to leave in a year, and not resigning Peters who is a 25 or so year old top 3 player at a premium position, and really not setting themselves up long term at all at OL. And New Orleans and Green Bay are two teams I could see being great for years longer as well thanks to each teams' past 2 offseasons in which they really improved their talent in key areas  along with their still elite QBs

Man, you are triggered.  You can't go a thread without bringing up the Rams and trying to discredit their window, even though you still (though asked... multiple times, to produce anything credible other than your own opinion to support these claims) continue to push these baseless narratives that Joyner is going to leave next year and that the team isn't working towards locking up Donald.  Desperation is a stinky cologne, dude.  We get it.  You're shook.