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warfelg

Earl Thomas

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You're massively overrating Hilton and Hargrave if you are refusing to trade them.  And you're overplaying the depth thing too.

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1 hour ago, Dcash4 said:

I won’t trade Foster...and Hilton...and Hargrave. I believe I’ve now said it 100 times ...it’s about Hilton and Hargrave.

Im willing to move foster or Gilbert, because their futures are to be short lived. I’m not willing to move the young guys AND those peices. It’s eliminating too much for the price of someone who doesn’t turn this defense around enough. Makes it better, sure, but not enough for what you are doing to the rest of the 46 game day players. 

Hargrave is someone we need to eventually replace with an actual NT in the sense of a starter. Foster is good but not irreplaceable and I have said that we need to find a successor to him, not for immediate replacement but more of a 'passing the torch'. Hilton is a blessing to our depth but not irreplaceable by any stretch. If the group of these guys was enough to get Thomas i would do it and never look back. Its not, but if it was...

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1 hour ago, warfelg said:

You're massively overrating Hilton and Hargrave if you are refusing to trade them.  And you're overplaying the depth thing too.

And your massively overrating your trade as the best possibility. Do you truely believe it’s the best way? I have been questioning this the entire time to no response. Do you honestly not think there is a better, and more realistic trade?  Getting ride of two young guys who are above the line NFL starters is the first option? Do you think that through 2 years in the NFL that they have maxed their potential? It’s short sighted. Now, not only do we have to replace guys immediately on the roster and damage your depth doing so, but add in that moving forward we have to continue to draft positions we had starters in. Your adding holes on top of our other holes for someone who doesn’t turn us into an elite team. I’m harping that there’s a way to KEEP those guys AND get ET — and that would be the best way. These guys are not untouchable, but your premise of the trade was finding the money to bring in ET. Guys with a combined $1.4 cap hit isn’t it. If you tell me it takes Hilton OR Hargrave to get get the deal done I’ll listen, but your just throwing names into a hat to do it and selling it as a hands down best bet  

And everything else is just opinion. I have my thoughts and you have yours. But the necessity of depth is a fact. Ask the Eagles what depth means to them or ask the Seahawks how quickly lack of depth ends championship runs. Injuries happen far to often to discount depth. Maybe we have better depth in Flieler and Sensabaugh than my opinion is, but I am not overplaying depth on a championship team. 

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I admitted that it's not....but again you are really overrating these guys and what it means for depth.

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8 minutes ago, warfelg said:

I admitted that it's not....but again you are really overrating these guys and what it means for depth.

I really don’t know that I am. I never claimed they were elite, are untouchable, or that they would ever share a pro bowl between them. But they are capable NFL players (one at a position we continually have sucked at finding successful young talent), young and developing, financially controllable, and have potential. If your making the deal, it needs to be the best option and there are plenty of better options that maintain both, at minimum at least 1 of them. I’ve just attempted to convey they these two are not throw away players as seems to be suggested.

I still do not understand your slight to depth. If you really want to see Coty Sensabaugh taking key late season snaps when Haden inevitably misses time so be it. But last year on Monday night against the Bengals is burned deep into my brain...#neverforgrt

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8 hours ago, Dcash4 said:

I really don’t know that I am. I never claimed they were elite, are untouchable, or that they would ever share a pro bowl between them. But they are capable NFL players (one at a position we continually have sucked at finding successful young talent), young and developing, financially controllable, and have potential. If your making the deal, it needs to be the best option and there are plenty of better options that maintain both, at minimum at least 1 of them. I’ve just attempted to convey they these two are not throw away players as seems to be suggested.

I still do not understand your slight to depth. If you really want to see Coty Sensabaugh taking key late season snaps when Haden inevitably misses time so be it. But last year on Monday night against the Bengals is burned deep into my brain...#neverforgrt

At safety, from all reports, Sean Davis is barely holding his job from Burnett and Edmunds starting, and there's reports that him and Marcus Allen are neck and neck.  The only thing that is keeping him in there right now is experience.

Same thing is happening between Hilton and Sutton and Phillips in the slot.  Hilton is only really holding it because he's the guy that's played it, but based on how they are performing it's neck and neck.

As for the contract: Davis and Hargrave have 1 year remaining then they are both URFA, Hilton is a ERFA at the end of the year then he's a URFA.  Are you that bent out of shape over 1 year?  If they had 2-3 years (after this year) left on their contracts I would think more, but they are all this season and next away from URFA.

As for my "slight to depth".....do you keep up with training camp news?  Allen has taken a step forward, Phillips is playing well, Sutton is playing well.  All 3 of them are likely end up ahead of Sensabaugh.  Every report from Beat Writers, Trusts Blogs, and just scouts is that our DB grouping might be the deepest and most talented it's been under Tomlin.

So what I'm taking away here is that when these guys have a rough game or go a while sucking we shouldn't complain because they are 'capable starters who can grow'?  Or that when we can't stop deep passes, it's ok because we have depth but not the player that can make that play?

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10 hours ago, wwhickok said:

Hargrave is someone we need to eventually replace with an actual NT in the sense of a starter. Foster is good but not irreplaceable and I have said that we need to find a successor to him, not for immediate replacement but more of a 'passing the torch'. Hilton is a blessing to our depth but not irreplaceable by any stretch. If the group of these guys was enough to get Thomas i would do it and never look back. Its not, but if it was...

This.  All of this.

I also like how he's said there's soooo many better options, and the only one he put forth involves Marcus Gilbert.  Trusting a Raw rookie Chukwuma Okorafor or some dude named Jake Rodgers (seriously who is this guy?) to replace a RT that's been right there for All-NFL (which RT's almost never make) or Pro-Bowl (which again, RT's almost never make)?

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1 hour ago, warfelg said:

At safety, from all reports, Sean Davis is barely holding his job from Burnett and Edmunds starting, and there's reports that him and Marcus Allen are neck and neck.  The only thing that is keeping him in there right now is experience.

Same thing is happening between Hilton and Sutton and Phillips in the slot.  Hilton is only really holding it because he's the guy that's played it, but based on how they are performing it's neck and neck.

Allen has taken a step forward, Phillips is playing well, Sutton is playing well.  All 3 of them are likely end up ahead of Sensabaugh.  Every report from Beat Writers, Trusts Blogs, and just scouts is that our DB grouping might be the deepest and most talented it's been under Tomlin.

You will have to share these reports with me. Havent seen anything about Davis and Allen being neck and neck, or seen Sutton take 1st team reps away from Hilton, or even found the Name "Phillips" anywhere (other than a tween that said he broke up a pass ....intended for Trey Griffey) or seen where Edmunds will be starting as he has only played in Burnett's spot. That last one is the one I hope it most realistic, because everything suggests he is having a great camp, but nothing has shown them taking snaps together at this point to say that. Sensabaugh is actually the one I continue to hear is having a good camp. You make is seem like Hilton is barely holding on...I have seen nothing that supports that. 

And please dont play this "Do you even read, bro?" thing. Not to derail, but I have spent the last 12 weeks in and out of a hospital with family for different reasons and have literally, had nothing better to do than read training camp info since the Orioles suck. None of the information I have seen supports those, but maybe I dont follow the same people on twitter or read the same blogs. 

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

As for the contract: Davis and Hargrave have 1 year remaining then they are both URFA, Hilton is a ERFA at the end of the year then he's a URFA.  Are you that bent out of shape over 1 year?  If they had 2-3 years (after this year) left on their contracts I would think more, but they are all this season and next away from URFA.

Just going to share a secret here.....you can sign players after their first contracts expire. I know, crazy. And affordable guys who can play a little football are all the rage. What do you think these two would make between them in a next contract? $6-8M total?

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

I also like how he's said there's soooo many better options, and the only one he put forth involves Marcus Gilbert.  Trusting a Raw rookie Chukwuma Okorafor or some dude named Jake Rodgers (seriously who is this guy?) to replace a RT that's been right there for All-NFL (which RT's almost never make) or Pro-Bowl (which again, RT's almost never make)?

Marcus Gilbert is a more valuable trade piece and has a longer contact than Foster (means, he is probably more enticing to Seattle) -- those things are not debatable. He's also a guy coming off a suspension in a season as well as having just drafted a 3rd rounder behind him -- hinting, that he is not getting a 3rd contract with us. My additional of Gilbert is a risk, but it would most likely also lessen the package you would need to send to Seattle -- who wants draft picks. Every piece you put in a deal needs to be measured against draft value -- Foster doesn't net much, Gilbert would net more. I'm not saying its not without risk, but If I need to throw a player into the deal -- throw a more valuable one, that we are already making plans to replace, where we have our best position coach, and a drafted asset. RT is also arguably Seattle's much more desperate position across their OL with a complete lack of talent. So its a more valuable guy, that most likely doesnt have a future with us, to a team that desperately needs a RT, will have 2 years of team control and stability (with potential to sign to an additional contact), saves us $5M the following year to help soften the draft pick loss, and maintain young talent. No, its not something I would be super excited to do, but it makes more sense than throwing 5 guys you dont like at the wall and thinking everyone in the thread will just openly agree with you. 

The best option is still to offer draft picks -- which, again, is what they want. Earl Thomas for a 1st, Sean Davis, and additional pick makes sense -- as long as you sign him to a new deal. His talent is worth a 1st rounder (which is, hopefully, deep in the first round and away from elite talent) and keeping guys instead of creating holes lessens the need for multiple spot replacement next off season and maintains your current positions of strength this season. Our CB room will be taken care of (and have potential to cut the $10M we will owe Haden in a best case scenario), our safety position is completely solidified, the DL doesn't need starter replacement, but maybe a lower level run stopper for depth (which could be frazier already), our offense is arguably already taken care of minus some depth pieces and a possible mid-level RB, so we could use all assets in draft and cash on LB help. Do you not agree that's probably the BETTER option and more realistic?

I also think you guys need to think about whats happening to the "Actual NTs" in the NFL and check out the list of quality corners this team has produced in the past handful of years. If guys are that replaceable, it should be reasonable to assume we have replaced them in recent history. 

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Here's the thing:

To me you haven't really convinced me that I'm creating that many holes.

And yet again you are pushing trading a RT with the worst depth on the team yet complaining about positions I'm offering up where we have the space to move forward without these guys.  Why?  I haven't seen you address the depth issue there.

I'm done having this discussion with you.  All you do is whine depth, say you have 30 better trades, and keep saying trade Gilbert who has 0 depth behind him.  You make out Hilton and Hargrave to be these guys we just can't replace, but then claim that they aren't.  

 

Last note:  Trading Gilbert this year means only $4.1mil of his contract is going to be moved, meaning you would still have to come up with at least another $4mil to move with him for the space to bring in ET.

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1 hour ago, warfelg said:

To me you haven't really convinced me that I'm creating that many holes.

Thats fine, you believe in some guys much more than I do. Still waiting to see those reports on Phillips and Allen - Especially Allen considering that he is a box SS and he is head to head with Davis currently at FS. 

But in terms of the word many: 1 is less than 3. 

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

I'm done having this discussion with you.  All you do is whine depth, say you have 30 better trades, and keep saying trade Gilbert who has 0 depth behind him.  You make out Hilton and Hargrave to be these guys we just can't replace, but then claim that they aren't.  

I mentioned Gilbert as a much more valuable asset (he is), that he is a more realistic option for Seattle to want (he is), that he saves us more on future cap (he does, $4.9 next year), doesn't have a strong future on the roster (my opinion, but we will see), and acknowledge that its not my favorite move but a trade would involve some risk -- and again, 1 is less than 3.

If you want to have realistic discussion -- have realistic value. Id love to have that conversation. You're out on Gilbert -- tell me where we go from here?

I have also mentioned the route of offering them the draft picks they want as the best option. But we don't seem to want to have that discussion, because reports are Hilton is hanging on by a thread. 

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Last note:  Trading Gilbert this year means only $4.1mil of his contract is going to be moved, meaning you would still have to come up with at least another $4mil to move with him for the space to bring in ET.

Asked an answered a page back. Actually laid out how your trade nets us $4.276M because your throwing in a bunch of low dollar guys and selling it as cleaning the slate. Then I proceeded with an example of trading Foster, Davis, and picks and making back end roster cuts to save just under $6M. More realistic. Less damaging. Keep useful guys on the roster. Did a better job of saving money. 

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18 hours ago, warfelg said:

Here's the thing:

To me you haven't really convinced me that I'm creating that many holes.

And yet again you are pushing trading a RT with the worst depth on the team yet complaining about positions I'm offering up where we have the space to move forward without these guys.  Why?  I haven't seen you address the depth issue there.

I'm done having this discussion with you.  All you do is whine depth, say you have 30 better trades, and keep saying trade Gilbert who has 0 depth behind him.  You make out Hilton and Hargrave to be these guys we just can't replace, but then claim that they aren't.  

 

Last note:  Trading Gilbert this year means only $4.1mil of his contract is going to be moved, meaning you would still have to come up with at least another $4mil to move with him for the space to bring in ET.

it means we will have no RT and Ben goes to IR(finally). Lets not even think of this unless he gets suspended again. The OL is finally good and Gilbert has been a really good RT, why even think of trading him?

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Just one last time here @Dcash4:

trading 1 guy we would upgrade right away, two that we have ready heir apparents on the roster, and 1 we can get the role in FA right now is a no no because of depth  

But

trading a guy we have no replacement for and not get one in return is ok. 

 

Why are you concerned about the 5th CB, a 35% of the time player, and a backup IOL, but starting tackle is no problem?

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Listen man, I'm not going to comment on the Gilbert idea after this. Its not the trade i want to push. You used salary dump as your main premise -- So I used Gilbert, because he is arguable a better one - seeing as he clears similar cap number to Foster, saves nearly $5M next years, and the writing is on the wall that he doesnt get a 3rd contract. I also used Gilbert because his VALUE in trade probably doesn't cost us starters across 3 positions (positions that you believe we are all set at, I say blindly). Add that our offense is our stronger unit by far (most likely to sustain a starter hit), we did just draft a 3rd round player with a position coach whose skill is maximizing talent, and that Gilbert has missed 27 games since 2012 by various injury and suspension (so we are prob gonna see that rookie regardless). These are the thoughts I had when crafting the idea -- Am I wrong with any of that assessment?

Its what I ultimately dont understand about where we keep getting stuck here. I agree Foster can be sold. I agree Hilton for ET is good, I am okay with moving Hargrave --- But I am not willing to DO IT ALL AT THE SAME TIME. I dont think your return is anywhere near as game changing as you think and causes issues with us down the road. You dont fix a road with potholes by adding more potholes. That may be a terrible analogy, because we might actually do that in Pennsylvania. 

Ill say again -- I dont WANT to move Gilbert. I agree its a risky move, but if it came to moving 1 piece that I dont believe has a future here instead of 5 players (3 starters, and 2 with futures), AND draft picks... I know which one I am more willing to role the dice on. If you told me we were getting Luke Kueckly without the concussion problems, I might run out the door with you, but I dont think ET, as good as he is, makes THAT big of a difference on this team to justify the cost. 

2 hours ago, warfelg said:

Why are you concerned about the 5th CB, a 35% of the time player, and a backup IOL, but starting tackle is no problem?

And why do you continue to make things up? This is becoming the most tiresome part. I honestly don't know where you get your information. First with the 30% of NT time, now its 35% when I already showed you the data of his player usage and how it outweighs the NT position. Still waiting on the information on Phillips lighting up TC, where SS Allen is neck and neck with FS Davis, and Sutton swapping out with Hilton on 1st team. Even the 5th CB slot...5th corner to who? Because its not the Steelers. That's not even to say that it wont happen -- but at this point, here and now, that's entirely hopes and dreams. 

I'll just leave this last quote here from earlier, because it is what I think the best option would be, but I cant wait to hear about how Gilbert is the top choice of mine. 

On 8/8/2018 at 12:52 PM, Dcash4 said:

I have also mentioned the route of offering them the draft picks they want as the best option. But we don't seem to want to have that discussion

 

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