Darbsk Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 14 hours ago, justwinbaby81 said: Calling Austin Howard and Menelik Watson, 2 guys cut or about to be, average goes to show how bad its been. They were and are well below average. The other trash we have had in the past at RT made them look serviceable. I think you're over estimating the level of tackle play, particularly right tackle in this league. Howard and Watson were pretty average (as sad as that is) and I'd go so far as to say Newhouse wasn't far below average especially when compared to the likes of what Seattle and Denver have been trotting out there for a while now. Frankly, it's very, very difficult to field a whole line of good to great players and we have effectively 3 Pro Bowl level players inside so if we have Penn at average or slightly above and a below average tackle the other side we'll still in all likelihood have one of the best lines around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justwinbaby81 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Darbsk said: I think you're over estimating the level of tackle play, particularly right tackle in this league. Howard and Watson were pretty average (as sad as that is) and I'd go so far as to say Newhouse wasn't far below average especially when compared to the likes of what Seattle and Denver have been trotting out there for a while now. Frankly, it's very, very difficult to field a whole line of good to great players and we have effectively 3 Pro Bowl level players inside so if we have Penn at average or slightly above and a below average tackle the other side we'll still in all likelihood have one of the best lines around. No offense but on what planet were they average? Watson is about to be on his 3rd team in as many years (if he makes a team) and Howard when he gets cut will be on his 4th in 3 years (if he makes a team). Watson didn't/couldn't even start half the games he managed to be active. Howard was a relatively average RG who flat out could not cut it at RT. Sparano and Tice did a decent job masking their flaws, Carr throwing the ball 2.2 seconds after the snap furthered that. Otherwise they are the same trash today that they were in 2015 and 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver&Black88 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 12 minutes ago, justwinbaby81 said: No offense but on what planet were they average? Watson is about to be on his 3rd team in as many years (if he makes a team) and Howard when he gets cut will be on his 4th in 3 years (if he makes a team). Watson didn't/couldn't even start half the games he managed to be active. Howard was a relatively average RG who flat out could not cut it at RT. Sparano and Tice did a decent job masking their flaws, Carr throwing the ball 2.2 seconds after the snap furthered that. Otherwise they are the same trash today that they were in 2015 and 2016. So wait. Are they average? Or are they journeymen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, justwinbaby81 said: No offense but on what planet were they average? Watson is about to be on his 3rd team in as many years (if he makes a team) and Howard when he gets cut will be on his 4th in 3 years (if he makes a team). Watson didn't/couldn't even start half the games he managed to be active. Howard was a relatively average RG who flat out could not cut it at RT. Sparano and Tice did a decent job masking their flaws, Carr throwing the ball 2.2 seconds after the snap furthered that. Otherwise they are the same trash today that they were in 2015 and 2016. As I said, the level of RT play is pretty poor..................they were far from the worst tackles I've seen in just the last couple years. Watson actually played reasonably well in patches for us albeit with a penchant for getting injured and Howard was above average I would say in 2016 when he went back from guard to tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justwinbaby81 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 3 hours ago, Silver&Black88 said: So wait. Are they average? Or are they journeymen? Cant it be both? Or neither. Certainly not average. We are saying the same thing Darsbk. I told you that other failures we had there made them look relatively good since it was an upgrade from abysmal. Doesnt make Watson or Howard any good. Neither does you comparing them to Seattle and Denver RT. Mack gets 5 sacks on one in a game vs Denver RT (that's why they were desperate/dumb enough to sign Watson in the first place) and Seattle's entire line has been horrible for years. I would say Newhouse was better. I also believe Penn will be (marginally) better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver&Black88 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, justwinbaby81 said: Cant it be both? Or neither. Certainly not average. It was a joke since there was a debate of trying to separate the meaning of the 2 words semi recently haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raiders4life Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 7 hours ago, dante9876 said: Rbs in pass pro can only do so much. Thats one less person carr can check down to. If they blitz, miller and penn are on their own. It sounds like only deep passes will be mass protect play action plays with 3 routes. It's more about the chip before the actual route is run. A clear indication of how disciplined a HB/TE is is to watch if they chip a rusher before running their route. You will see a HB sometimes blow out of the backfield right at the snap right past the OT who is playing the inside rush. The OT protected hard inside because help was supposed to be there on the outside speed rush. With TEs they will push a guy inside before running their route. Sometimes just that little touch buys enough time for the QB to get the pass off. Morale of the story: I'm hoping for creative offensive look that confuses the D. They shouldn't be able to guess whether or not the Raiders are keeping everyone in. The second they think everyone is staying in and they bring some LBs, the ball should be going over their heads to Cook down the seam uncovered. I'll trust in Gruden till he proves otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver&Black88 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 14 minutes ago, raiders4life said: It's more about the chip before the actual route is run. A clear indication of how disciplined a HB/TE is is to watch if they chip a rusher before running their route. You will see a HB sometimes blow out of the backfield right at the snap right past the OT who is playing the inside rush. The OT protected hard inside because help was supposed to be there on the outside speed rush. With TEs they will push a guy inside before running their route. Sometimes just that little touch buys enough time for the QB to get the pass off. Morale of the story: I'm hoping for creative offensive look that confuses the D. They shouldn't be able to guess whether or not the Raiders are keeping everyone in. The second they think everyone is staying in and they bring some LBs, the ball should be going over their heads to Cook down the seam uncovered. I'll trust in Gruden till he proves otherwise. I don't disagree but you can only sweep poor OT play under the rug so much. I know you aren't discarding that, but at some point, its going to bite us. I hope Carr doesn't get killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raiders4life Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, Silver&Black88 said: I don't disagree but you can only sweep poor OT play under the rug so much. I know you aren't discarding that, but at some point, its going to bite us. I hope Carr doesn't get killed. Trust me man, I'm worried about the OTs too. In the end, I'm just trying to convince myself that there's a plan in place. It's going to come down to how Gruden and Olsen handle it. I hope and pray we don't see any of those empty set 5 step drops that are bound to end up with Carr on his back. I guess I'll put it this way.. Every team has their weaknesses. It's up to the staff to know those weaknesses better than their opponents do and figure out how to make it work. Not an easy task with an apparently glaring problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver&Black88 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 43 minutes ago, raiders4life said: Trust me man, I'm worried about the OTs too. In the end, I'm just trying to convince myself that there's a plan in place. It's going to come down to how Gruden and Olsen handle it. I hope and pray we don't see any of those empty set 5 step drops that are bound to end up with Carr on his back. I guess I'll put it this way.. Every team has their weaknesses. It's up to the staff to know those weaknesses better than their opponents do and figure out how to make it work. Not an easy task with an apparently glaring problem. We're getting off topic from camp cuts but: I think Plan A was McGlinchey and Plan B was Miller. I don't think the staff expected our RTs to be so bad. Between Vadal Alexander, Kirkland, Sharpe, Ware, Giacomini, Silberman, I think they expected SOMEONE to not suck. And then have the rookie wait behind Penn. But, as fate would have it, they ALL aren't good enough. I think this was their worst case scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble_Beast Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Derwin James is beasting for Chargers too Obi already cut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nodisrespect Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, Humble_Beast said: Derwin James is beasting for Chargers too Obi already cut Of course he is at least we have Kolton Miller and Erik Harris?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justwinbaby81 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Silver&Black88 said: It was a joke since there was a debate of trying to separate the meaning of the 2 words semi recently haha Gotcha. I've been gone too long haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver&Black88 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Honestly the guy I'm more unhappy about not getting is Minkah, but whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakRaiders3828 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 But imagine our tackle situation without Miller? (Barring he pans out) I did love James though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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