Fix Our Passrush

[48 1/2ers]

First question-does the 49ers pass rush need to make changes in order to contend for a SB?

There’s plenty reason to believe that the likes of Marsh, Attouchu, Eli Harold, and Dakota Watson will be exactly as they have been their entire career, below average. 

If your the type to believe rumors that materialize in camp you might as surprised as I am to hear about all the pass rush talent “available”. Kahlil Mack, Dante Fowler, Junior Galette, I heard something about Carl Lawson getting shafted a starting role so he could be on the table. What other names from teams who might be tight on $ for extensions could you see being free. 

Next question-what do you expect of the young passrushers currently on the roster? PitaT, Julian Taylor, Solly, and even DJ jones. 

Obviously Buckner right now the biggest blue chip on the team right now. Is he the type you build around or more of a compliment to a dominant speedy/edge rusher? 

What does our passrush need to look like in order to compete for Super Bowls. 

[mw2noobbuster]

I think you need someone at LEO that is just a speed-freak that can bend around the edge consistently, even if sacks aren't being generated by him. Force the QB back in the pocket where the likes of Solly and Buckner are doing their damage from the inside. I don't think that player is in the Niners organization, right now.  

[Forge]

2 hours ago, 48 1/2ers said:

First question-does the 49ers pass rush need to make changes in order to contend for a SB?

I'm actually not ready to answer this question yet because I don't know exactly how bad it is, nor do I know how close the rest of the team is. My gut says yes, but I don't want to put big steps forward from the likes of Thomas out of the realm of possibility. We need to fix our edge rusher - no doubt about that. The overall pass rush can be improved I have no doubt, but again, how much it needs to be is a question I don't have an answer to. 

Out of the guys you mentioned who may be available, none but Mack interest me. Lawson would as well, but I refuse to believe that there's any chance whatsoever he's on the market.

As additional names, obviously Ziggy and Lawrence are only on the tag. I'd much prefer the latter, but if Ziggy can put together a good season, I'd listen to possibly a shorter deal for him (2-3 years) after the season. Of course, neither the Cowboys or the Lions are really tight up for money next year (50 and 38 million before roll over), so if both play well, there's no reason to assume that they aren't going to be back there again next year. 

 The guy who may be most interesting is Brandon Graham. The eagles could certainly have issues with cap space next year, and Graham would save about 7 million in space next year. He'll also be heading into his age 31 season and on the last year of his deal as well. My guess says the Eagles simply extend him and spread out the guarantees.  Justin Houston couldsave KC a really big chunk of change next year (14 million), but I think if that's a move they make, it means he is continuing to struggle to stay healthy, so he may not be the edge rusher we want anyway. 

Lastly, I'd mention Bruce Irvin as I don't think that there's any way he's back with the Raiders next year. Or at least I'd be surprised if he were. He's been a consistent 7/8 sack guy for them, though admittedly done his best work at end, but he had okay sack numbers for seattle, is familiar with the scheme, and I feel reasonably sure that he generated his sack numbers in Seattle out of their SAM position, not the LEO. So adding him, a 5-8 sack guy with what we have, plus even an adequate pass rushing leo? I think that could be a formidable pass rush honestly. 

2 hours ago, 48 1/2ers said:

Next question-what do you expect of the young passrushers currently on the roster? PitaT, Julian Taylor, Solly, and even DJ jones. 

Thomas may develop into a solid, if unspectacular interior rusher. I dn't think he'll ever be a great edge rusher. Not expecting much from Pita at all. I think he's probably not on the roster next year without a considerable jump in performance.  Taylor is a work in progress - obviously love some of the explosion we have seen, but will need it against the NFL starters and he's still not someone sparking around from the outer edge as a leo. He's going to be a big DE, so maybe that's enough if he develops a pass rush. Jones may push pockets, but he's a nose tackle, that's never going to be his primary focus, and a lot of the times on passing downs he's probably not going to be there. He's going to be in on roughly half the defensive snaps, and his position largely dictates that he be there on almost all the high run probability snaps. 

2 hours ago, 48 1/2ers said:

Obviously Buckner right now the biggest blue chip on the team right now. Is he the type you build around or more of a compliment to a dominant speedy/edge rusher? 

Why isn't he both? Calais Campbell was a defensive centerpiece in Arizona, yet his career high in sacks before last year was 9. I think that's similar to Buckner's upper end possible pass rush (I'd say 7 or 8, but 9 is basically the same), but that same year he also functioned as a complimentary piece to John Abraham's edge rusher.  Suh and McCoy are both guys I would have built a defense around from the interior and combined they have a single 10 sack season (their rookie year, Suh had 10). Do I think Buckner is 8-10 sacks? No. I think he's largely 6-7 or so type in the right situation,  but I still think that's a guy you build around.  Darnell Dockett may actually be the closer comp and more appropriate player to compare him too, but again, thats a guy the Cardinals built around and he was there for what, a decade? That's pretty solid. 

 

2 hours ago, 48 1/2ers said:

What does our passrush need to look like in order to compete for Super Bowls. 

One very good outside rusher I think is all it would legitimately take. We need the pressure off Buckner to some extent. I think Having Thomas pushing a pocket on the interior with Buckner would help as well. Buckner isn't Justin Smith just eating double teams alive. He'll pretty much destroy anything in his way heads up on an offensive lineman. He's not there where he can seismically wreck a double team yet. 

[48 1/2ers]

I will say there is a scenario where the interior rotation is so disruptive that the current group of edge guys like Marsh and Attouchu put up good numbers. Marsh in particular has that vibe of a late bloomer 

[mw2noobbuster]

54 minutes ago, 48 1/2ers said:

I will say there is a scenario where the interior rotation is so disruptive that the current group of edge guys like Marsh and Attouchu put up good numbers. Marsh in particular has that vibe of a late bloomer 

I remember a play where Attouchu was on a stunt and he showed some great lateral movement to sneak through the B gap and pursuit after the QB. Stuff like that gives me some hope. 

[Forge]

1 hour ago, mw2noobbuster said:

I remember a play where Attouchu was on a stunt and he showed some great lateral movement to sneak through the B gap and pursuit after the QB. Stuff like that gives me some hope. 

He needs to keep that crown up, apparently. I didn't notice it, but Barrows said that he repeatedly saw Senor Sneezy initiate contact with his hands and helmet together, which should have been called a penalty. He was only flagged for it once though. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Yes, the 49ers need to make changes to their pass rush in order to contend for a championship. They need an elite edge defender. Those are never available via free agency or trade (at least not in their prime). 49ers best hope is to go all in early on next year's draft in the hopes they can get a true difference maker. The current crew the team has won't cut it. Kyle has expressed that they might try to bring Elvis Dumervil back. I hope they pull the trigger.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

49ers were 27th last year with 30 sacks I noticed. And without Dumervil we are probably going to be worse. To be fair, there really weren't many options in the offseason. 

[N4L]

We have three consecutive 1st round picks on our interior DL. Two of them are tweener types in thomas and armstead. I anticipate a lot of rotation and guys lining up everywhere. Even guys who are lined up on the outside can loop in and create pressure up the middle etc etc. Part of this will be determined by the stunt packages called by Saleh.

We have an absolute monster of a human being creating chaos in Buckner. Thomas is showing some nice upside. He has improved a lot in the past year from what I can tell. Our DL does have some depth. There is a lot to like out there even without an elite edge rusher. 

As always, its going to take a collective effort to get to the QB. The best QBs are able to move within the pocket and buy themselves that extra heartbeat to allow the receiver to uncover. The most consistent passrushes collapse the pocket from every direction and dont give the QB an escape route. We saw it against the cowboys, buckner forced prescott to get off his spot. Even though he didnt get the sack, he forced Dak to bring the ball down which allowed thomas to come clean him up. 

Having speed off of the edge that forces QBs to step into the the waiting arms of our interior rushers would/could be very effective. Its why I'm crossing my fingers that we bring Elvis Dummerville back. He still had a great first step last year and would fit in. I wonder if hes had other interest but is holding out to come back to us.

Part of a good pass defense consists of good coverage. Forcing the QBs to hold the ball will only help. 

We have so much height and length that I'm hoping we can get a lot of interceptions on tipped passes too. 

[oldman9er]

It's easy to throw wild and hollow guesses, but I don't think any outsiders can say with any real accuracy. Preseason games are not going to reveal much, and we don't get to see the good stuff behind the scenes, not really. We are pretty much left to put blind faith in the coaches to analyze and get it right. Then it's our fun jobs to hand out happy pats on the backs, or tear into them like vicious piranha.