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AnAngryAmerican

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We got to talking about this yesterday at the bar, imagine if two things, just two things, had gone differently for us three years ago. One, we hire Kyle instead of Vance and two, Carolina accepts our trade offer and we get McCaffrey instead of Bolles in the first round?

How different would the conversation around this team be if those two decisions would have been made differently. 

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21 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

That said, I still don't believe his style of play is sustainable long-term, but he will certainly give us a very exciting three or four seasons. A key ingredient to his success that has gone overlooked is how Harbaugh was willing to completely rework the offense to fit his skill set and how quickly he has been successful at installing it. 

You're 100% right with everything you've stated. I think you're misguided on what teams are looking for in a qb from picks 20 on.

Tom Brady(6) and Drew Brees(2), and Russell Wilson(3) just aren't the norm at that range. If you can get a guy ala Cam Newton that slant dunks his rookie year at pick 32 winner winner chicken dinner.  

I also believe Changing offensive philosophy is over stated.  As long as you have the oline play, changing personnel to fit scheme around that is doable. The Ravens value of the TE position that's the main difference I notice to other spread offense's besides the commitment to the run. Boyle ,Andrew's, Hurst good luck stopping that combo.

Annddd...  once Ingram gets hurt they have Hill ready to step in and not skip a beat thanks to the Flacco trade.

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25 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

How different would the conversation around this team be if those two decisions would have been made differently. 

You could do that so many ways what if we accept the Bill's trade(2018), what If we had dealt Von Miller on the tag and got Two firsts and a 3rd where would that saved money and draft capital have gone. What if Elway trades up for Wentz in 2016, or Darnold in 2018.

The main mistake is VJ and unfortunately that will never change. I personally think first round QB busts are over stated they hurt your team no doubt. Butttt... you can bounce back Buffalo selecting Allen after the EJ pick, Washington hedging the RG3 pick with Cousins, and Vikings signing Cousins after pissssssinnggg a 1st away on Bradford. 

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7 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

You could do that so many ways what if we accept the Bill's trade(2018), what If we had dealt Von Miller on the tag and got Two firsts and a 3rd where would that saved money and draft capital have gone. What if Elway trades up for Wentz in 2016, or Darnold in 2018.

The main mistake is VJ and unfortunately that will never change. I personally think first round QB busts are over stated they hurt your team no doubt. Butttt... you can bounce back Buffalo selecting Allen after the EJ pick, Washington hedging the RG3 pick with Cousins, and Vikings signing Cousins after pissssssinnggg a 1st away on Bradford. 

The difference being a lot of the things you mention were never under serious consideration if they were under consideration at all. They weren't going to trade Von, despite what talk radio numbskulls say. There no plans to move up for Wentz and the only way we take Darnold in 2018 is if the Jets pass on him and he falls to No. 5. 

We interviewed Kyle and he reportedly blew Elway away, Ellis' issues with the Shanahan family combined with Russell's long-term relationship with Vance tipped the balance the other (wrong) way. We wanted to get Christian McCaffrey, Elway tried in days and hours before the draft to work a move up for him but Carolina, when they went on the clock at No. 8, wouldn't budge. 

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2 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

We wanted to get Christian McCaffrey, Elway tried in days and hours before the draft to work a move up for him but Carolina, when they went on the clock at No. 8, wouldn't budge. 

So that's of equal to importance to Chubb somehow managing to fall pass Cleveland, because the parameters of that trade were were out as well.

Also been meaning to ask you where do you value a franchise rb in the 2020 draft if the opportunity knocks? Keeping Lindsay fresh as well as Royce is best for the long term health of the position as well as our offense imo.

As far as your Kyle comments I guess Elway was right then about the hire, and if he gets canned he'll be the scapegoat for the VJ hire since Ellis can't fire himself?

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4 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

So that's of equal to importance to Chubb somehow managing to fall pass Cleveland, because the parameters of that trade were were out as well.

Also been meaning to ask you where do you value a franchise rb in the 2020 draft if the opportunity knocks? Keeping Lindsay fresh as well as Royce is best for the long term health of the position as well as our offense imo.

As far as your Kyle comments I guess Elway was right then about the hire, and if he gets canned he'll be the scapegoat for the VJ hire since Ellis can't fire himself?

If Elway gets canned, and the team attempts to put all the blame for the current state entirely on him, he gives a tell-all interview to one of the Denver sports media figureheads - Woody, Clough, Zappolo, Shapiro, etc. - goes on the record about the dirt at Dove Valley under Ellis and throws the franchise into chaos. That's also why Matt Russell doesn't get fired, he knows where the bodies are buried. 

On the first point, you don't spend premium draft capital on a RB unless three conditions are met  - one, he is an elite, game-changing talent a la Barkley, Elliot, McCaffrey; two, you do not have a glaring hole at a more-important position (QB, LT, CB, EDGE) with a prospect on the board who can fill that hole; three, you don't have any RB currently on  your roster, or a stable of them, who can adequately shoulder a running game.

I don't think we meet any of those three conditions let alone all three of them. So, no. Go ahead and draft another back with another of our top-100 picks.  

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1 minute ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

don't think we meet any of those three conditions let alone all three of them. So, no. Go ahead and draft another back with another of our top-100 picks.  

100 % agree with this also think the likelihood increases due to Lock being on a rookie deal, but maybe that's my imagination. 

And if Elway got canned I wouldn't mind a Majic Johnson like interview that would be welcoming.  Chaos leads to change imo.

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And @AnAngryAmerican I know Ellis has had issues with the Shanahans do you know more specifics on that? I know Ellis was behind Mike getting canned but Kyle still wanted this job.

So was it as fractured as the Washington/Shanny relationship and if not how come?

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2 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

And @AnAngryAmerican I know Ellis has had issues with the Shanahans do you know more specifics on that? I know Ellis was behind Mike getting canned but Kyle still wanted this job.

So was it as fractured as the Washington/Shanny relationship and if not how come?

As I understand it, from reports published over the years and what my beat reporter friend (someone you all know and respect) has told me from what he has been able to piece together, is that there was mutual interest between Elway and Kyle.

One, this was one of Kyle’s dream jobs growing up (the other coincidentally being SF, the two teams with whom Mike won Super Bowls). Two, Elway was highly-regraded in league circles at the time being just a year removed from the SB 50; the job was seen as less of a long-haul rebuild that SF was. Also, at the time, Jed York was seen as a meddling owner unable to decide what he wanted, had been through multiple failed coaches and Jim Harbaugh, who got out of dodge when a better job (Michigan) became available. What’s interesting about all that is how SF and we have almost traded places since both jobs were open in early of 2017. 

Mike and Elway have (somewhat) patched up their relationship, they’re not the best friends they used to be but they don’t despise each other they way they did in the ~2005-2015 years. Remember their relationship dates back to mid-80s when Mike was an assistant under Dan Reeves. Now, Elway did prefer Vance initially when Kubiak resigned due to health but, he did interview Kyle as more than just a favor to Mike (which some claimed at the time), he was seriously interested in what Kyle had to offer. Same for Toub, in whom Elway did have genuine interest. According to a quote directly from my beat reporter friend, “a tie went to Vance” because of a) Elway’s initial inkling towards him, b) Ellis’ not wanting the Shanahans back in the building and c) Russell’s full-throated endorsement of his college friend and teammate. 

Those factors led Elway to choose Vance. My friend also says that there is a chance that had both us and SF offered Kyle the job, he chose the latter as he was given a longer contract which meant more job security and far more authority over personnel  and the makeup of his staff (both coaching and FO) than he would have received here.

Kyle, Adam Peters (our former college scouting director) and John Lynch form a triumvirate in SF, with an owner who is now hands-off, giving the three of them autonomy and a collaborative environment in SF. While here he would have had higher expectations, a more urgent need to win now and much less authority over football operations than he enjoys in SF. 

Thus, it could be a moot point, but the background story is fascinating and it would have been very interesting had Kyle received an offer from both franchises. 

Edited by AnAngryAmerican

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I dont think getting C-Mac was ever that viable given the cost. But what could have really changed this franchise direction would have been hiring Kyle and signing Whitworth instead of Leary. 

Another not so talked about what-if, what if we signed the right Vikings FA QB in 2018? What if we offered him an above market deal (Say, 16-18M) for 3 years. Thats a gamble that would have paid off in spades. You get a (lower tier) franchise QB for a huge value over 3 seasons, opening 10M+ in extra money over what player of Teddy's caliber would generally get. 

This team with Kyle, Whitworth and Teddy? Were in the playoffs. I have no doubt about it. Those three guys would have shored up the three biggest issues we have had since the Super Bowl. 

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5 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I dont think getting C-Mac was ever that viable given the cost. But what could have really changed this franchise direction would have been hiring Kyle and signing Whitworth instead of Leary. 

Another not so talked about what-if, what if we signed the right Vikings FA QB in 2018? What if we offered him an above market deal (Say, 16-18M) for 3 years. Thats a gamble that would have paid off in spades. You get a (lower tier) franchise QB for a huge value over 3 seasons, opening 10M+ in extra money over what player of Teddy's caliber would generally get. 

This team with Kyle, Whitworth and Teddy? Were in the playoffs. I have no doubt about it. Those three guys would have shored up the three biggest issues we have had since the Super Bowl. 

Very fair point. Teddy B, who I do and have liked for a long time, is not entirely proven however. Taking over that team, with that coach, in those circumstances is not different from liking Matt Cassell in 2009. I don’t mean that as a slight against Teddy, but the gamble is there. 

But, again, I didn’t hear that that scenario was ever seriously considered. Hiring Kyle and trading up for C-Mac, on the other hand, we’re very much real possibilities, ones that were  pursed, considered and under discussion at the very highest levels on the second floor at Dove Valley. They did not come to fruition but were, nonetheless, very real possibilities. 

My point was not to play a “what if...” game. We can do that all day and it would be fun, “what if we drafted Dareus, Patrick Peterson or AJ Green instead of Von?” Or “what if we hired Jim Harbaugh?” Or any number of what ifs. 

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18 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Hiring Kyle and trading up for C-Mac, on the other hand, we’re very much real possibilities, ones that were  pursed, considered and under discussion at the very highest levels on the second floor at Dove Valley. They did not come to fruition but were, nonetheless, very real possibilities

Do you think we still sign Lindsay with C Mac? Which would be bananas. 

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1 minute ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Maybe. But what’s that matter? 

I just think they'd compliment each other well is all.

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I do believe Kyle Shanahan is a great coach.  But he gets so much more credit than deserved in this forum for a guy that has still basically done nothing as an HC.  Obviously he’s better than Vance, but he isn’t the 2nd coming of Bill Belichick.  The 49ers (Shanahan was also a part of helping acquire this) have maybe the most talented/deepest team in the NFL right now.  Literally 1st/2nd round picks everywhere, whether they drafted them or acquired them later.  Their OL has 4 top 50 selections.  Their front 7 has 5 1st round picks.  They’ve went out and spent money on guys like Sherman and Kwon Alexander.....the 49ers are as much about talent acquisition (maybe more so) as they are coaching....you’d almost have to try to lose games as a coach not to make the playoffs with the roster they’re putting out right now.

Saleh is is getting hyped as a defensive genius....again you’d have to try and make that defense suck not to be in the top 10 with the talent they have.

Edited by germ-x

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