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AnAngryAmerican

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14 hours ago, Broncofan said:

@champ11 I know you like pointing out how team-friendly the CBA is - and while I agree, I think the NFLPA has very clear responsibility in letting this happen.  They just are a very poor union. 

Great example - the Le'veon Bell holdout meltdown today.  I get that teammates aren't happy he's holding out, it really hurts their chances this year, and their window to contend is closing.  And it's true he's making a lot more than many of them.   But consider the context - after he took a 1/12M franchise tag last year, they used him for 400+ touches in 15 games last year, and then this year they tagged with 1/14.4M - and then offered a 2-year deal guaranteed money as their best offer - when their offer was for 5 years in 2017, with 3+ guaranteed years.   In other words, after a 2017 where Bell bet on himself, played great, the Steelers came with a much LOWER offer.   I get there's 1 more year of age, but in that context, it's easy to see why Bell's chosen to hold out a portion of 2018 - otherwise, they'd run him into the ground, and then he'd risk losing his only shot a big payday with injury, and more flags on wear/tear on his resume.  

Here's the thing - the fact a superstar can't get a guaranteed deal beyond year to year other than offer that are ridiculously below market - the PIT players should be supporting his right to make a stand.  Instead, they just kill his character.   And yet if they were the ones holding out, they'd be expecting their teammates to stay out of it - as it's a business decision.  Now, it's very clear something else is driving the talks - probably Bell isn't a saint.  But the NFLPA at the very least should be supporting Bell to the fullest - PIT's use of the 2nd tag and not operating in good faith to obtain an extension, Bell should be exercising his full rights to wait as a response.   Even if his teammates dislike it for the team, for the NFLPA and future negotiations, it's actually helping the group as a whole.

So the kicker here?   The guy leading the charge in slamming Bell today - Ramon Foster (see below).  Who happens  to be he PIT NFLPA rep.  Yep, the one guy who should understand the need to stand up to a team that won't negotiate in good faith.  

If anyone wonders why the NFL CBA is so tilted to being owner/team-friendly, the complete lack of ability of the NFLPA has to be factored in here.  SMH.

 

 

Absolutely dude. Complete clown behavior from his teammates. They got these guys brainwashed smh. They should be on the players side regardless when it comes to negotiations, even if the player may not have a case, and in this situation they are 100% on the wrong side. 

I'd be so livid with the organization if I was a Steelers fan. Bell is one of my favorite players ever to watch. It's a tough situation but at least treat the guy with respect if you aren't going to give him a fair deal. 

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The NFL wants to get things right and has all these new rules in place to make the game better/safer.  How about improving the intentional grounding rule, it’d make the game so much more interesting.  Foles in the end zone, under heat, just threw it straight down at an offensive linemans feet with an RB “in the area.”  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that was clearly an intentional grounding.  He didn’t want to complete the pass, wasn’t touched, and NFL QBs can throw the ball on a dime 20 yards downfield, but all of a sudden, in the pocket, without being touched throw the ball 5 yards directly into the ground?  

The NFL wants to improve things and continue to make decisions that make the game worse, more controversial, and less entertaining.  

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20 hours ago, champ11 said:

Absolutely dude. Complete clown behavior from his teammates. They got these guys brainwashed smh. They should be on the players side regardless when it comes to negotiations, even if the player may not have a case, and in this situation they are 100% on the wrong side. 

I'd be so livid with the organization if I was a Steelers fan. Bell is one of my favorite players ever to watch. It's a tough situation but at least treat the guy with respect if you aren't going to give him a fair deal. 

To be honest, the problem is with the CBA rather than the organisations themselves. The Franchise Tag was designed to give the team and player extra time to iron out a long term deal. Instead, teams are (understandably) abusing it to control a players rights for two extra years. We are at the ridiculous impasse where it is actually better to be a very good player as opposed to elite, as teams won't franchise tag very good players for 2 years but they will with elite players.

Bell is in the incredibly unfortunate scenario of being an elite player at a position with a proven shelf life, with a ridiculous amount of tread on his tyres (even more so when you add in his work at Michigan State) and he's been at the team's mercy for 6 years due to him being a 2nd round pick. People will lament the Steelers but the fact is every single other competitive organisation would've done the same. 

For anyone who finds the financial side of the game interesting, I would really, really recommend the Spotrac (www.spotrac.com) podcast where they foresee these issues. Mike Ginnitti, the Spotrac owner, offers great insight into upcoming decisions for teams and then offers potential solutions along with his own prediction.

Ginnitti is definitely not an advocate of being the team to sign Bell to a contract next year, but he knows (and we all know) someone will. It will look great for a year, maybe two, and then you're going to be in the 'poop'.

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55 minutes ago, lomaxgrUK said:

To be honest, the problem is with the CBA rather than the organisations themselves. The Franchise Tag was designed to give the team and player extra time to iron out a long term deal. Instead, teams are (understandably) abusing it to control a players rights for two extra years. We are at the ridiculous impasse where it is actually better to be a very good player as opposed to elite, as teams won't franchise tag very good players for 2 years but they will with elite players.

Bell is in the incredibly unfortunate scenario of being an elite player at a position with a proven shelf life, with a ridiculous amount of tread on his tyres (even more so when you add in his work at Michigan State) and he's been at the team's mercy for 6 years due to him being a 2nd round pick. People will lament the Steelers but the fact is every single other competitive organisation would've done the same. 

For anyone who finds the financial side of the game interesting, I would really, really recommend the Spotrac (www.spotrac.com) podcast where they foresee these issues. Mike Ginnitti, the Spotrac owner, offers great insight into upcoming decisions for teams and then offers potential solutions along with his own prediction.

Ginnitti is definitely not an advocate of being the team to sign Bell to a contract next year, but he knows (and we all know) someone will. It will look great for a year, maybe two, and then you're going to be in the 'poop'.

Yeah, the CBA is the root problem.  And to take 1 step further - the franchise tag being sold as a mechanism to give teams extra time to iron out a LT deal - should never have been agreed to at the way it's set.   Make year 1 a 20 percent pay raise (or top 5 contract, whichever is higher, what's agreed to now), and make year 2 44 percent pay raise on 1st tag.  Or no 2nd year at all.  THAT would create great urgency to get a deal done on the 1st tag year.  Instead, the tag is used as a way for teams to avoid long-term risk for guys like Bell, who really should be paid at least 3+ years guaranteed (and I'm one who says RB is replaceable, but Bell's work, he's done enough to get more than a year-to-year deal).   

But here's the crazy part on the team - PIT's offer this year included 10M guaranteed.  Nothing else, no extra years.  That's less than the tag year 1 or year 2.  Thats the very definition of negotiating in bad faith - there was no attempt on PIT to try and secure a long-term deal, which is what the tag was explicitly created for.   THAT type of offer is an insult - and that's something PIT controls.  Last year, they made an offer that Bell's agent suggested last-minute to accept - which suggests that it was a good faith offer.   Bell then chose to play all season.   This year, after that insulting offer, and the increased usage last year (400+ touches in 15 games), Bell & agent decided to protect his future market worth.  While Bell telling his teammates he was planning to report, and not reporting is awful, and he deserves all the flak he gets behind closed doors (but not in public for above reasons, at least by NFLPA reps at very least), PIT definitely gets a big chunk of blame here too.  Really, there's enough blame to go all around - Bell, the team, and of course, the NFLPA.

The NFLPA agreeing to the CBA and the tag as it was set up, and its reps leading the charge in blasting Bell for holding out (the lying may have been the extra icing on the cake, but holding out should be supported 100 percent for tag players, it's literally their only recourse), well it  just shows how inept they are.   The craziest part - I mentioned that Ramon Foster as NFLPA rep should have been the one PIT guy to support Bell publicly, and maybe tone down the vitriol from the rest of the PIT players in public (anything goes in private, but in public you support your fellow player in trying to raise the bar for the rest of the players and highlight how brutal the CBA currently is).  Well, the NFLPA usually can turn to their alternate NFLPA rep if there's an issue raised with the team rep.   But...the alternate rep in PIT is Maurkice Pouncey - the other guy (along with Decastro) who absolutely crushed Bell publicly.  And of the 3 guys who torched Bell, yesterday only Decastro was the one to back off his comments in public.   Neither NFLPA rep did.    SMH such an indictment on the lack of ability with the NFLPA.   

Edited by Broncofan
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4 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

To be honest, the problem is with the CBA rather than the organisations themselves. The Franchise Tag was designed to give the team and player extra time to iron out a long term deal. Instead, teams are (understandably) abusing it to control a players rights for two extra years. We are at the ridiculous impasse where it is actually better to be a very good player as opposed to elite, as teams won't franchise tag very good players for 2 years but they will with elite players.

Bell is in the incredibly unfortunate scenario of being an elite player at a position with a proven shelf life, with a ridiculous amount of tread on his tyres (even more so when you add in his work at Michigan State) and he's been at the team's mercy for 6 years due to him being a 2nd round pick. People will lament the Steelers but the fact is every single other competitive organisation would've done the same. 

For anyone who finds the financial side of the game interesting, I would really, really recommend the Spotrac (www.spotrac.com) podcast where they foresee these issues. Mike Ginnitti, the Spotrac owner, offers great insight into upcoming decisions for teams and then offers potential solutions along with his own prediction.

Ginnitti is definitely not an advocate of being the team to sign Bell to a contract next year, but he knows (and we all know) someone will. It will look great for a year, maybe two, and then you're going to be in the 'poop'.

Great take lomax! I use Spotrac often but never listened to the podcast. I'll give it a go.

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4 hours ago, lomaxgrUK said:

To be honest, the problem is with the CBA rather than the organisations themselves. The Franchise Tag was designed to give the team and player extra time to iron out a long term deal. Instead, teams are (understandably) abusing it to control a players rights for two extra years. We are at the ridiculous impasse where it is actually better to be a very good player as opposed to elite, as teams won't franchise tag very good players for 2 years but they will with elite players.

Bell is in the incredibly unfortunate scenario of being an elite player at a position with a proven shelf life, with a ridiculous amount of tread on his tyres (even more so when you add in his work at Michigan State) and he's been at the team's mercy for 6 years due to him being a 2nd round pick. People will lament the Steelers but the fact is every single other competitive organisation would've done the same. 

For anyone who finds the financial side of the game interesting, I would really, really recommend the Spotrac (www.spotrac.com) podcast where they foresee these issues. Mike Ginnitti, the Spotrac owner, offers great insight into upcoming decisions for teams and then offers potential solutions along with his own prediction.

Ginnitti is definitely not an advocate of being the team to sign Bell to a contract next year, but he knows (and we all know) someone will. It will look great for a year, maybe two, and then you're going to be in the 'poop'.

I disagree about every organization doing what the Steelers did. Obviously NFL teams don’t take care of their players as well as you can in other sports but if you want to create a winning culture you take care of your key guys and build an environment that players and agents respect and want to get involved with. This is going to hurt them in the long run. 

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48 minutes ago, champ11 said:

I disagree about every organization doing what the Steelers did. Obviously NFL teams don’t take care of their players as well as you can in other sports but if you want to create a winning culture you take care of your key guys and build an environment that players and agents respect and want to get involved with. This is going to hurt them in the long run. 

To take it one step further - PIT’s practice that the GM admitted to is that they do not offer fully guaranteed $ to players beyond the next year.  Big Ben and AB have been the only recent notable exceptions.   Their beat reporter Ed Bouchette confirmed this.  In Bell’s case this year they didn’t even offer guaranteed money that matched the tag - it just over 10M in fully guaranteed $ (vs a 14.4M tag for 2018). 

THAT is ridiculous.  It also explains why they don’t sign high level FA’s.  And why they let guys walk in FA.  Business wise it’s incredibly wise but there’s an extreme that’s unreasonable if winning is the goal.  That’s certainly the case.  

Elway’s been smart enough to know this.  If a player is worth extending guaranteed $ for 2+ years is the market price (and even then it’s super stingy compared to other sports).   It’s making sure that the guy is worth extending that’s more important - and not being forced to extend meh long term guys because there are no internal cheap options ready to take over where Elway’s struggled of late (draft being the root).  PIT drafts very well - they should be saluted for that.  But the notion that they can’t offer guaranteed $ to Bell beyond the current year is a joke.  That’s not at all what every other org does.  That’s on PIT alone.  

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I'm sure I'm in the minority but the Bell situation looks to me like a win for him. Sign the franchise tag and make another $14.5 million. Thats almost $27 million in the last two years. Thats huge for a RB. 

Being honest he has to realize he's already surpassed the 4 yr average for RB's. He knows his YPC dropped almost one yard per attempt last year. He's also taken a huge workload and beating in his 5 yr career and it takes a toll.

He's in an incredible situation as far as I'm concerned. Next year he'll either be a UFA or the Steelers can tag him again at over $17 million. He's made enough money to live very well for ever if he chooses to walk away with his health somewhat intact.

If he's worried about a career ending injury I'm sure he can get a good insurance policy with some of the $4.5 million he earns above the 2nd highest paid RB($10 mil).

I just don't see the downside for Bell. If he wants to play next year he can negotiate with the highest bidder. If not he walks away with $30 million earned as a RB in his first 6 years.

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1 hour ago, AKRNA said:

I'm sure I'm in the minority but the Bell situation looks to me like a win for him. Sign the franchise tag and make another $14.5 million. Thats almost $27 million in the last two years. Thats huge for a RB. 

Being honest he has to realize he's already surpassed the 4 yr average for RB's. He knows his YPC dropped almost one yard per attempt last year. He's also taken a huge workload and beating in his 5 yr career and it takes a toll.

He's in an incredible situation as far as I'm concerned. Next year he'll either be a UFA or the Steelers can tag him again at over $17 million. He's made enough money to live very well for ever if he chooses to walk away with his health somewhat intact.

If he's worried about a career ending injury I'm sure he can get a good insurance policy with some of the $4.5 million he earns above the 2nd highest paid RB($10 mil).

I just don't see the downside for Bell. If he wants to play next year he can negotiate with the highest bidder. If not he walks away with $30 million earned as a RB in his first 6 years.

Either way though as long as Bell reports by Nov 13 he can get that UFA status after this season.  So he keeps his mileage down and he gets to be a UFA.  He simply is deciding to play fewer games to ensure his mileage is manageable from 2018.   Given PIT increased his per game usage dramatically in 2018 (only 1 year was above 340 touches per season - then he got 400+ in 15 games in 2017), it’s not hard to fault the thinking. 

BTW next year a 3rd tag is a 44 percent increase.  So that’s 20.6M.  Which PIT has to count against the cap even if he held out again for a period of time.  So the most likely answer is Bell is a 2019 UFA. 

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Just a thought, Bell and his agents are idiots. Any 26yo RB that would pass up $14 million guaranteed for one year in the hopes for a great long term contract is beyond stupid.

Losing almost `$1 million per game for a principle is a pretty foolish stand. This money won't ever come back and if he really thinks the Steelers will fold he's just not thinkin'.

 

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17 hours ago, AKRNA said:

Just a thought, Bell and his agents are idiots. Any 26yo RB that would pass up $14 million guaranteed for one year in the hopes for a great long term contract is beyond stupid.

Losing almost `$1 million per game for a principle is a pretty foolish stand. This money won't ever come back and if he really thinks the Steelers will fold he's just not thinkin'.

 

Especially after James Conner went out and didn’t miss a beat behind that OL.  Jaylen Samuels is another intriguing RB on that roster.

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