Bears vs Chiefs - Preseason Week 3

[Sugashane]

10 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Marqise Lee is out for the year after a knee injury sustained this weekend, same as Cam Meredith last year. What if that was Allen Robinson? Or Jordan Howard? Or Mitch? Or Hicks? 

Nagy’s decision to keep the bubble wrap on his top guys on Saturday shouldn’t have needed near the explanation it has required.

 

It's fine that he did, and it hasn't "required" any explanation. I'm not going to put them out there and throw 50 times or anything, but I don't believe you can go into games being worried about being injured. And the defense is basically the same group running the same system, I couldn't care less about their work. On offense you have Robinson coming off an injury where he missed extended PT, Trubisky has less PT than a lot of current college starters since high school, Gabriel has missed some time with (I think) a foot injury, Miller is a rookie still learning the system, etc.

Injuries in games isn't going to be a massive risk above risks in practice if you're going full contact in practice like some have suggested. You might not have your guys tackling low in practice but still risk non-contact ACL injuries, concussions, etc.

 

Tannahill was hurt during practice, Big Ben was, Wheaton has been hurt in practice for us, etc. Wynn tearing his Achilles was just a freak incident while passblocking that could have happened in any 1on1 drill.  It sucks but injuries happen. If Nagy was so scared of injuring guys he would have done some plays like a QB sneak he did with Tru. There will always be risk.

 

[G08]

 

This was insane. How quickly he chopped his feet and how he burst out of his stutter and into his go... elite burst.

I'm not expecting much of anything and I'm a notorious Kevin White hater, but man if he can consistently do this we might have a legit 6'3" deep threat.

[beardown3231]

7 hours ago, Sugashane said:

 

It's fine that he did, and it hasn't "required" any explanation. I'm not going to put them out there and throw 50 times or anything, but I don't believe you can go into games being worried about being injured. And the defense is basically the same group running the same system, I couldn't care less about their work. On offense you have Robinson coming off an injury where he missed extended PT, Trubisky has less PT than a lot of current college starters since high school, Gabriel has missed some time with (I think) a foot injury, Miller is a rookie still learning the system, etc.

Injuries in games isn't going to be a massive risk above risks in practice if you're going full contact in practice like some have suggested. You might not have your guys tackling low in practice but still risk non-contact ACL injuries, concussions, etc.

 

Tannahill was hurt during practice, Big Ben was, Wheaton has been hurt in practice for us, etc. Wynn tearing his Achilles was just a freak incident while passblocking that could have happened in any 1on1 drill.  It sucks but injuries happen. If Nagy was so scared of injuring guys he would have done some plays like a QB sneak he did with Tru. There will always be risk.

 

But the risk multiplies in games. Figure out the ratio between August injuries and September issues and I’m willing to bet it triples or quadruples in September. I agree if a guy tears his ACL, it was bound to happen soon anyway, but you take that chance in meaningful football over meaningless scrimmages.

I get you wanted some starters out there, but trust me: in 2 years, none of these guys around the league will be playing much of any snaps. It just isn’t worth the risk.

And again- if the Bears lose week 1, it’ll be because of #12, NOT because Trubisky didn’t take any snaps on 8/25.

[Sugashane]

Just now, beardown3231 said:

But the risk multiplies in games. I get you wanted some starters out there, but trust me: in 2 years, none of these guys around the league will be playing much of any snaps. It just isn’t worth the risk.

I get that. I just wish that the next CBA would cut the preseason but allow 2 weeks of practice that is full pads. That would be a fair compromise. I just don't want an OL that is trying to gel to get our QB killed. We ruined Cutler with crap OL play and playcalling, I really don't want that to have any chance of happening to Tru.

 

Granted, I trust in Nagy, but if a starter or two go down then we might have some serious concerns to scheme around. Hopefully HH is working his magic and getting guys molded as expected.

[AZBearsFan]

9 hours ago, Sugashane said:

 

It's fine that he did, and it hasn't "required" any explanation. I'm not going to put them out there and throw 50 times or anything, but I don't believe you can go into games being worried about being injured. And the defense is basically the same group running the same system, I couldn't care less about their work. On offense you have Robinson coming off an injury where he missed extended PT, Trubisky has less PT than a lot of current college starters since high school, Gabriel has missed some time with (I think) a foot injury, Miller is a rookie still learning the system, etc.

Injuries in games isn't going to be a massive risk above risks in practice if you're going full contact in practice like some have suggested. You might not have your guys tackling low in practice but still risk non-contact ACL injuries, concussions, etc.

 

Tannahill was hurt during practice, Big Ben was, Wheaton has been hurt in practice for us, etc. Wynn tearing his Achilles was just a freak incident while passblocking that could have happened in any 1on1 drill.  It sucks but injuries happen. If Nagy was so scared of injuring guys he would have done some plays like a QB sneak he did with Tru. There will always be risk.

 

It’s not fear of injury per se as much as managing risk. I fully realize that’s a semantic statement, but how much better were Mitch & Co. gonna get in 2 quarters of preseason football? Swap in Mitch, ARob and Miller for Daniel, White and Wims this past Saturday and give them the same results. Would that have been REALLY meaningful in terms of the big picture? I don’t think so.

I don’t think success or failure Saturday would have had any real impact or been an indicator of anything long term. It was a glorified practice with a still limited playbook against a reasonably bland defensive scheme. The only thing “real” in the preseason games for the top guys to me IS the risk of injury. In that light, playing them for extended run in the preseason is essentially risk just for the sake of risk, and that is dumb IMO. I’d be fine with me if Mitch & Co. never played in the preseason games at all tbh. I think what Nagy did by sitting his guys is going to be more of a trend than what has been the status quo. 

[JAF-N72EX]

I will never understand how people can be persuaded so easily by the media and also put so much trust in the media trained players/coaches.

I wonder how many pre-social media fans who now claim preseason games are useless were taking the same stance before it got so much attention in the media and became the "cool" thing to say. Or did it not matter as much then? (*waits for the usual "I have been saying this forever"*). I almost guarantee that those of you who were old enough to understand the game 10-20 years ago were not preaching what you are now and as often.  

This is the same thing with the whole idea that "the new CBA has made every team start off sloppy in the first few weeks" because of the new restrictions. When, in fact, the data shows that teams have been more consistent on a week-to-week basis than any other point in time going all the way back to 1989.  It changed how coaches and players prepare for the season/games but there is no indication that teams have been starting slow since 2011. This is media persuasion BS and nothing more. There are certain teams who start slow for various reasons and there are others who start fast. This is nothing new.  

You cannot replicate a real game in practice. There is no substitution for that. Calling something "meaningless" would imply that there is nothing to gain from it - which is far from the truth.

This is a young team--which cannot be overstated enough.  Most young players can't learn how to adjust to the speed of the game, in practice. A player can't learn how to pick up on hidden signals and learn tendencies by playing against the same players on their team, in practice. A player can't learn how improvise on-the-fly when an opposing team picks up their tendencies and signals, in practice.

Those are things players pick up on along the way and learn through film study and "on-the-field" trial and error. And not just rookies or sophomores either (although it is tougher for them). Even for veterans because, hell, even vets continue to learn these things as they develop. 

/end rant.

[JAF-N72EX]

On 8/26/2018 at 4:07 PM, AZBearsFan said:

Oh, it’ll be basically all that’s talked about, especially if the offense looks sluggish. And that’s ridiculous. They’re a big time underdog to a more established team on the road in prime time. They should lose week 1. But it’s Green Bay, so common sense goes all the way out the window. 

That's the thing though. I don't care if they lose(in that sense anyhow). It's more about how they lose.

[beardown3231]

5 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I will never understand how people can be persuaded so easily by the media and also put so much trust in the media trained players/coaches.

I wonder how many pre-social media fans who now claim preseason games are useless were taking the same stance before it got so much attention in the media and became the "cool" thing to say. Or did it not matter as much then? (*waits for the usual "I have been saying this forever"*). I almost guarantee that those of you who were old enough to understand the game 10-20 years ago were not preaching what you are now and as often.  

This is the same thing with the whole idea that "the new CBA has made every team start off sloppy in the first few weeks" because of the new restrictions. When, in fact, the data shows that teams have been more consistent on a week-to-week basis than any other point in time going all the way back to 1989.  It changed how coaches and players prepare for the season/games but there is no indication that teams have been starting slow since 2011. This is media persuasion BS and nothing more. There are certain teams who start slow for various reasons and there are others who start fast. This is nothing new.  

You cannot replicate a real game in practice. There is no substitution for that. Calling something "meaningless" would imply that there is nothing to gain from it - which is far from the truth.

This is a young team--which cannot be overstated enough.  Most young players can't learn how to adjust to the speed of the game, in practice. A player can't learn how to pick up on hidden signals and learn tendencies by playing against the same players on their team, in practice. A player can't learn how improvise on-the-fly when an opposing team picks up their tendencies and signals, in practice.

Those are things players pick up on along the way and learn through film study and "on-the-field" trial and error. And not just rookies or sophomores either (although it is tougher for them). Even for veterans because, hell, even vets continue to learn these things as they develop. 

/end rant.

I don't think preseason was always meaningless because preseason wasn't always the way it is now. Now, every coach is trying to hide their real offense. Every DC isn't unveiling their blitz packages (except Gregg Williams maybe but that's because he's psychotic). They don't want to put much on tape. Veterans don't give a damn. Remember the 2012 preseason? Fans were PISSED. "Peanut is done! Look how slow! He's trailing these guys by 3 yards!" He went on to force 10 fumbles, intercept 3 passes and score a few TD's on his way to almost winning DPOY. Look at the Cincinnati and Denver preseason games. Cohen had, what, 3-4 touches in those games combined? Do you really think he won't have 3-4 touches in the first QUARTER on September 9? 

Again, I would challenge you to watch last year's preseason and then week 1 and see the tendencies, formations, strategy, etc was COMPLETELY different. To throw these players out there and run an offense they won't be running unless they're winning by 5 touchdowns is dangerous and, yes, meaningless.

I challenge you when you say "a player can't learn how to pick up on hidden signals and learn tendencies ... in practice." I absolutely think Miller can learn a ton by playing against Fuller and Amukamara daily. I also don't believe Miller would have much to go off of in games because 1) veterans f***ing hate the preseason and if you think they're as focused, concentrated and playing with 100% effort would be an exaggeration and thus they aren't showing tendencies/signals as they would weeks 1-17 and 2) even if Miller would have played another 10 snaps, say on Saturday, would that really be the difference in a fast or slow week 1?

If Nagy's intention was to run his offense on Saturday, then yes, let's watch Trubisky and company. If it wasn't, there is no sense in risking anything.

[dll2000]

I think the horse has been beaten to death by now.  But I'll kick it a few more times.

Playing starters in pre season or not is an argument with valid Pros AND Cons.

No one is a moron for being on one side of that fence or the other. 

Except that guy.  He's clearly a moron.  

 

  

 

 

 

[dll2000]

7 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

I don't think preseason was always meaningless because preseason wasn't always the way it is now. Now, every coach is trying to hide their real offense. Every DC isn't unveiling their blitz packages (except Gregg Williams maybe but that's because he's psychotic). They don't want to put much on tape. Veterans don't give a damn. Remember the 2012 preseason? Fans were PISSED. "Peanut is done! Look how slow! He's trailing these guys by 3 yards!" He went on to force 10 fumbles, intercept 3 passes and score a few TD's on his way to almost winning DPOY. Look at the Cincinnati and Denver preseason games. Cohen had, what, 3-4 touches in those games combined? Do you really think he won't have 3-4 touches in the first QUARTER on September 9? 

Again, I would challenge you to watch last year's preseason and then week 1 and see the tendencies, formations, strategy, etc was COMPLETELY different. To throw these players out there and run an offense they won't be running unless they're winning by 5 touchdowns is dangerous and, yes, meaningless.

I challenge you when you say "a player can't learn how to pick up on hidden signals and learn tendencies ... in practice." I absolutely think Miller can learn a ton by playing against Fuller and Amukamara daily. I also don't believe Miller would have much to go off of in games because 1) veterans f***ing hate the preseason and if you think they're as focused, concentrated and playing with 100% effort would be an exaggeration and thus they aren't showing tendencies/signals as they would weeks 1-17 and 2) even if Miller would have played another 10 snaps, say on Saturday, would that really be the difference in a fast or slow week 1?

If Nagy's intention was to run his offense on Saturday, then yes, let's watch Trubisky and company. If it wasn't, there is no sense in risking anything.

Nagy even said this.  He wasn't going to run plays in their playbook. Not just avoiding plays they don't plan on running in the next game.  Plays they run at all.

Obviously, you can't completely do that.  They must just cobble together a list of plays out of protections and patterns or concepts using their terminology like lego blocks.  For oline, they probably have 10 different blocking combinations and only thing they need to hear is one of those, left or right.  WR's have various routes and/or concepts and they just need to hear that and so on.    

Defense is easier.  You just call base assignments every play for your various alignments and coverages.  

As an aside, easiest way to key these multiple offenses (Spread zone, RPOs, screens, pocket concepts, boots) for a defense is to ignore backfield or alignments and watch how OL is blocking it.  That will tell you what type of play it is 9 times in 10.  Problem is it isn't that easy to do in real time speed once ball is hiked and closer you are to LOS the harder it is.  And a clever guy like Nagy will throw in some misread plays every game to keep you honest.   You can't have any all the time tells in the NFL, these guys have all day to watch film.  They aren't going to classes or working another job.  Something always has to look like one thing and be something else at some point.

 

 

 

 

[AZBearsFan]

5 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

That's the thing though. I don't care if they lose(in that sense anyhow). It's more about how they lose.

I get that, but I don’t think one half of running largely different plays than those they’ll run week 1 anyway would make any noteworthy difference. 

[beardown3231]

RT @shaepeppler: Kyle Long on starters sitting during preseason football...

"I think you would be crazy to say you want to play more snaps of meaningless football, until they start counting the W's & L's its an opportunity for young guys & backups to make a team…it’s pointless." #Bears

[51to54]

Most major college teams only play one Little Sisters of Lower SE Arkansas type teams on their way to the 'regular' season. Well, outside of the SEC anyway.

Granted, college schemes aren't as complicated, but teams are limited on practice time compared to the NFL.

Not really interested in the debate. Mostly just poking a stick in the eye of the SEC.

[JAF-N72EX]

5 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

I get that, but I don’t think one half of running largely different plays than those they’ll run week 1 anyway would make any noteworthy difference. 

Yeah Nagy said the same thing and I understand his point. I get 2000 snaps vs 30 or 40. But again that's practice, not live game play and that's where the discrepancy lies.

Take this for what it's worth. A half hour before the game Arkush was on radio talking about this and they asked him (paraphrase) how much do most coaches still value preseason games for starters and he said that the coaches and execs that he has talked too, most have said they put alot value in it.

Assuming that "most" is over 50% among guys who have forgotten more about the game than I'll ever know, personally, I'm siding with them on this. 

But, we'll see how it goes.

[beardown3231]

36 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Yeah Nagy said the same thing and I understand his point. I get 2000 snaps vs 30 or 40. But again that's practice, not live game play and that's where the discrepancy lies.

Take this for what it's worth. A half hour before the game Arkush was on radio talking about this and they asked him (paraphrase) how much do most coaches still value preseason games for starters and he said that the coaches and execs that he has talked too, most have said they put alot value in it.

Assuming that "most" is over 50% among guys who have forgotten more about the game than I'll ever know, personally, I'm siding with them on this. 

But, we'll see how it goes.

You lost me at Hub Arkush. The guy dissolved into irrelevancy a long time ago. Most of the current and up to date reporters (ones who are actually around the team, which Hub no longer is) say the complete opposite.