BroncoBruin Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 3 minutes ago, champ11 said: I think drafting guys like Shane Ray and Bradley Roby is a great market inefficiency to take advantage of. But there is a reason why Jones' employer has been the Cincinnati Bengals for like a decade. They were the team that wanted to take advantage of the Jones type of inefficiency of a dude that would be untouchable due to legal issues with a lot of teams. IDK, I make a lot of compromises as an NFL fan and it's just getting old man. I mean, Talib tried to shoot a guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said: I mean, Talib tried to shoot a guy... Right. I mean he wasn't charged with anything. But yeah discussing this stuff gets tough because at some point we're judging crimes on a scale. I'd say Pacman is kind of in a league of his own but it's still kind of an absurd exercise. But it's certainly true that someone as good as Talib gets more of a pass because of his level of play. I'm feeling different about it because Talib was signed as a marquee signing where as Pacman Jones is a desperation signing. Talib was highly desirable on the market whereas no one wanted Pacman. Probably not completely fair from me, but there is context. It's just not a good look IMO. Desperation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted August 27, 2018 Author Share Posted August 27, 2018 26 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said: I mean, Talib tried to shoot a guy... He tried to shoot a complete moron. (Yes, it was self-inflicted lol). Re: Jones, let's not minimize the problems, it wasn't just 2007: -Fought with bodyguard 2010 -Arrested in 2013 for d&d -2017 fight and subsequent suspension for fight with hotel employee. And lest we forget, the 2007 shooting was his 2nd run-in that year. Suspended 4x by 3 different teams. So it's not like it's a one-off at all. Again, some of these issues could be shrugged off as a one-time event, but when taken as a whole - Jones is not a good person. He's not different, just older and hopefully wiser at avoiding trouble...until he relapses. A brief summary - http://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nfl/news/adam-jones-pacman-arrest-arrested-bengals-charged-felony-police-officer-nurse/1ocjvvghxyxmw1pdmism56p3u4 Again, no problem for a 1M signing for 1 year. But let's not turn homer blind-eye, Pacman's a need signing where we're completely ignoring his very bad character. He won't be the last, nor was he the first. It's the business of football. Just don't play the character card when it's convenient - winning matters most in football, and that's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 42 minutes ago, Broncofan said: He tried to shoot a complete moron. (Yes, it was self-inflicted lol). Re: Jones, let's not minimize the problems, it wasn't just 2007: -Fought with bodyguard 2010 -Arrested in 2013 for d&d -2017 fight and subsequent suspension for fight with hotel employee. And lest we forget, the 2007 shooting was his 2nd run-in that year. Suspended 4x by 3 different teams. So it's not like it's a one-off at all. Again, some of these issues could be shrugged off as a one-time event, but when taken as a whole - Jones is not a good person. He's not different, just older and hopefully wiser at avoiding trouble...until he relapses. A brief summary - http://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nfl/news/adam-jones-pacman-arrest-arrested-bengals-charged-felony-police-officer-nurse/1ocjvvghxyxmw1pdmism56p3u4 Again, no problem for a 1M signing for 1 year. But let's not turn homer blind-eye, Pacman's a need signing where we're completely ignoring his very bad character. He won't be the last, nor was he the first. It's the business of football. Just don't play the character card when it's convenient - winning matters most in football, and that's fine. Different Talib case. He tried to shoot another person. Not sure how I'm a "homer" for providing context to Pacman's history. I said there's been one incident since 2008 (the bodyguard fight in Dallas). I guess I missed the 2013 arrest, so that makes two in the past decade. Anyway, not to target you because a lot of people here do it but the "homer" stuff on this site is so overplayed. It's like everyone is afraid to appear as anything but 100% cold and objective, so anything that even hints at defending your favorite team sets off alarms and freaks people out. We've gone too far in the other direction in how we expect fans to talk about sports, as if we're supposed to be upholding some journalistic integrity on a fan forum. It's goofy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted August 27, 2018 Author Share Posted August 27, 2018 2 hours ago, BroncoBruin said: Different Talib case. He tried to shoot another person. Not sure how I'm a "homer" for providing context to Pacman's history. I said there's been one incident since 2008 (the bodyguard fight in Dallas). I guess I missed the 2013 arrest, so that makes two in the past decade. Anyway, not to target you because a lot of people here do it but the "homer" stuff on this site is so overplayed. It's like everyone is afraid to appear as anything but 100% cold and objective, so anything that even hints at defending your favorite team sets off alarms and freaks people out. We've gone too far in the other direction in how we expect fans to talk about sports, as if we're supposed to be upholding some journalistic integrity on a fan forum. It's goofy. Yeah, I couldn't resist the self-inflicted joke, it writes itself. No worries, all good I respect your takes aren't driven at all by homerism. But it's pretty clear the moment Pacman signed, we're seeing a very different take than if he was still on CIN. That's the very trap home-team fans fall into. I actually wasn't taking your post alone - but the whole idea that Pacman isn't a bad character is very much influenced by us signing him. There's no other explanation. We'd be shaking our heads if another team did that and said character was important to them. He's not a core piece at all, and it's a 1-year commitment, so in the end, there's little risk. But the take that we value character above all else, though, rings hollow. Elway's talk of character being crucial, it's clear if push comes to shove, trying to win will set that aside. Winning matters more - and that's totally fine, but let's call it for what it is. FWIW, re: Jones note that the 2013 and 2017 incidents happened - so we're talking bodyguard fight in 2010, D&D in 2013, and then fight with hotel employee in 2017. So it's now 3x since 2008. One by one, a couple of them (D&D in particular), don't raise much alarm. Together though, different story. And the 2017 incident was ugly - and troubling given how he appeared to be on his last strike in 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 14 minutes ago, Broncofan said: Yeah, I couldn't resist the self-inflicted joke, it writes itself. No worries, all good I respect your takes aren't driven at all by homerism. But it's pretty clear the moment Pacman signed, we're seeing a very different take than if he was still on CIN. That's the very trap home-team fans fall into. I actually wasn't taking your post alone - but the whole idea that Pacman isn't a bad character is very much influenced by us signing him. There's no other explanation. We'd be shaking our heads if another team did that and said character was important to them. He's not a core piece at all, and it's a 1-year commitment, so in the end, there's little risk. But the take that we value character above all else, though, rings hollow. Elway's talk of character being crucial, it's clear if push comes to shove, trying to win will set that aside. Winning matters more - and that's totally fine, but let's call it for what it is. FWIW, re: Jones note that the 2013 and 2017 incidents happened - so we're talking bodyguard fight in 2010, D&D in 2013, and then fight with hotel employee in 2017. So it's now 3x since 2008. One by one, a couple of them (D&D in particular), don't raise much alarm. Together though, different story. And the 2017 incident was ugly - and troubling given how he appeared to be on his last strike in 2013. You're not making the distinction between football character and off the field character. When Elway talked about valuing character guys this year, he was specifically talking about football character. How guys are in the locker room, practice, meetings etc. I don't remember any legal problems with our players last year, but we consistently heard about locker room altercations, fights in practice, cliques within the team, guys not giving it 100% effort etc. I've never heard anything negative about Pacman as a locker room presence. He was a captain in Cincinnati. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted August 27, 2018 Author Share Posted August 27, 2018 8 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said: You're not making the distinction between football character and off the field character. When Elway talked about valuing character guys this year, he was specifically talking about football character. How guys are in the locker room, practice, meetings etc. I don't remember any legal problems with our players last year, but we consistently heard about locker room altercations, fights in practice, cliques within the team, guys not giving it 100% effort etc. I've never heard anything negative about Pacman as a locker room presence. He was a captain in Cincinnati. Normally I'd give that more weight - but let's face it, CIN is not a good model for tolerating acceptable behavior, or making people accountable. I mean, they made Burfict a captain...in 2017. That's the very embodiment of horrific on-field character (and off-field too). It's amazing Marvin Lewis is still there, zero accountability with him in charge - shows how CIN's ownership just cares about the bottom line (so firing a guy and paying him dead money isn't in their vocabulary). Being a 10-year vet on any other team would carry a ton of weight - in CIN, it just means he's learned there's no real consequences to his actions. I do hear you on the football argument....just it's very hard to see that it's going to be a clean distinction in Pacman's case. I will also agree with the earlier larger take that in the grand scheme of things, this isn't an earth-shaking move (recall I'm not making a huge case about that part). More a disagreement on Pacman as a person (which is fine), and how much it reflects against Elway's statements on character (again, a matter of opinion - it's just hard to take CIN's actions as much support given who they think deserves to be a captain). Like I said before, it's a more philosophical problem than a key-OMG-sky-is-falling-in-our-organization warning sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Just now, Broncofan said: Normally I'd give that more weight - but let's face it, CIN is not a good model for tolerating acceptable behavior, or making people accountable. I mean, they made Burfict a captain...in 2017. I do hear you on the football argument....just it's very hard to see that it's going to be a clean distinction. Not sure I get your point about Burfict. He's a dirty player but am I missing something about his presence on the team? Has he been a locker room nuisance, not given effort in practice, not paid attention in meetings etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted August 27, 2018 Author Share Posted August 27, 2018 15 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said: Not sure I get your point about Burfict. He's a dirty player but am I missing something about his presence on the team? Has he been a locker room nuisance, not given effort in practice, not paid attention in meetings etc.? He's a guy who costs the team with reckless and selfish play. Stupid penalties galore, and usually from really stupid cheap shots after the whistle (not just the PIT plays). And has never changed. And yet the team makes him their captain. A guy who won't learn to change is the guy they want to role model for the other younger guys. This list is a good one - forget the college/HS, just the NFL stuff. Note that half of the plays were completely unnecessary and after the whistle. Out of control, dirty, and only hurts the team for his own impulses. https://www.sbnation.com/2016/12/18/13351854/vontaze-burfict-history-cincinnati-bengals-asu-personal-fouls (EDIT: derailed convo enough so I'll stop, but hopefully point gets through) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, Broncofan said: He's a guy who costs the team with reckless and selfish play. Stupid penalties galore. And has never changed. And yet the team makes him their captain. A guy who won't learn to change is the guy they want to role model for the other younger guys. We're getting sidetracked. What specifically about the Pacman signing is contradictory to the goal of addressing the "character" problems Elway attempted to fix this offseason, and remember those problems were entirely centered around having a spirited, focused locker room. Pacman has not been a problem in that sense, not since he's been with the Bengals. If you have concrete examples of him being a negative presence in a locker room, you could take issue with Elway's "character" thing. Not so willing to buy the "Yeah but Cincinnati" line of thinking built around perception with no supporting evidence. You have no idea what kind of presence Pacman was on that team. Haven't heard any negative stories, VJ spoke highly of him, and he was voted as a captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted August 27, 2018 Author Share Posted August 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said: We're getting sidetracked. What specifically about the Pacman signing is contradictory to the goal of addressing the "character" problems Elway attempted to fix this offseason, and remember those problems were entirely centered around having a spirited, focused locker room. Pacman has not been a problem in that sense, not since he's been with the Bengals. If you have concrete examples of him being a negative presence in a locker room, you could take issue with Elway's "character" thing. Not so willing to buy the "Yeah but Cincinnati" line of thinking built around perception with no supporting evidence. Come on, you know we don't have examples being outsiders. But we have clear knowledge that he's had major problems and they've continued. We can clearly show CIN is not a bastion of character, the exact opposite of an accountable organization. So we can't use his 10-year history to give him a pass - the flip side to your statement. It's fine that we don't agree, but it's literally arguing 2 sides of the coin when it comes to locker room arguments. We have sidetracked the convo enough, though, so I'll leave it at that. The reality is we both don't see this as a huge move either way, and we aren't likely convincing each other of our beliefs on this, either, which is fine too. Some things aren't going to be settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoBruin Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Just now, Broncofan said: Come on, you know we don't have examples being outsiders. But we have clear knowledge that he's had major problems and they've continued. We can clearly show CIN is not a bastion of character, the exact opposite of an accountable organization. So we can't use his 10-year history to give him a pass - the flip side to your statement. It's fine that we don't agree, but it's literally arguing 2 sides of the coin when it comes to locker room arguments. We have sidetracked it, though, so let's leave it at that. The reality is we both don't see this as a huge move either way, and we aren't likely convincing each other of our beliefs on this, either, which is fine too. Some things aren't going to be settled. You're still not making the distinction. You're talking about off the field issues. Again, Elway was not concerned about off the field issues when he spoke of fixing the locker room. He was concerned with making sure there was a positive, team-friendly, hard-working environment. Don't remember any arrests last year, but I do remember reports of players being late for meetings, practice fights, locker room altercations, lack of effort in games and complaining about management. From all accounts, teammates respect Pacman, he's coachable, he practices and competes hard and he's a smart player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 2 hours ago, BroncoBruin said: You're still not making the distinction. You're talking about off the field issues. Again, Elway was not concerned about off the field issues when he spoke of fixing the locker room. He was concerned with making sure there was a positive, team-friendly, hard-working environment. Don't remember any arrests last year, but I do remember reports of players being late for meetings, practice fights, locker room altercations, lack of effort in games and complaining about management. From all accounts, teammates respect Pacman, he's coachable, he practices and competes hard and he's a smart player. I honestly don’t care about the Jones signing. I really don’t think he does a whole lot for Denver outside of maybe returning punts. But you’re getting a bit over the top trying to defend him. Jones is a POS person. Trying to argue that is a losing battle. Trouble has followed him since he set foot in the league, that doesn’t happen by accident. He may be well liked and a good locker room guy, I have no idea, but to say he’s a “smart player” is ludicrous. He has a history of boneheaded plays. It was only 2 years ago he and Burfict (surprise those 2 were included in the same sentence) cost the Bengals a playoff win vs the Steelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medisback Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 3 hours ago, BroncoBruin said: We're getting sidetracked. What specifically about the Pacman signing is contradictory to the goal of addressing the "character" problems Elway attempted to fix this offseason, and remember those problems were entirely centered around having a spirited, focused locker room. Pacman has not been a problem in that sense, not since he's been with the Bengals. If you have concrete examples of him being a negative presence in a locker room, you could take issue with Elway's "character" thing. Not so willing to buy the "Yeah but Cincinnati" line of thinking built around perception with no supporting evidence. You have no idea what kind of presence Pacman was on that team. Haven't heard any negative stories, VJ spoke highly of him, and he was voted as a captain. A little bit of "character" insight. When I was in medical school in Fort Worth, I rotated at the local children's hospital. Pacman was there EVERY week that the team was in town to see the kids. Romo did the same thing. Both of those guys were kind, humble and very encouraging to little ones in tough situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 14 minutes ago, medisback said: A little bit of "character" insight. When I was in medical school in Fort Worth, I rotated at the local children's hospital. Pacman was there EVERY week that the team was in town to see the kids. Romo did the same thing. Both of those guys were kind, humble and very encouraging to little ones in tough situations. It's a nice story, but that just means he's not all, full-on POS. Which is the case for all but the worst human beings. I think we can all agree it's not a mover-and-shaker franchise event, little risk. I think that won't garner any debate lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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