Pre-injury J.J. Watt vs. prime Reggie White

[RandyMossIsBoss]

"Back in the day"... man you make it sound like we're talking about the infant NFL when players had other real jobs. We're talking 25 years ago, the physical make-up of football players has not changed all that much in such a short amount of time, and most of the changes can be attributed to the changes in how the game is played rather than the players being physically superior.

Average size of OL in 1990s: 6'4, 300 lbs

Average size of OL in 2015: 6'5, 312 lbs

per this article

So 1 inch and 12 pounds? Please. That's small enough where you could even chalk it up to different measuring practices. This shouldn't even enter the argument, we're not trying to compare Don Hudson with Jerry Rice here.

 

 

Didn't watch Reggie, so cannot really give an answer, but Watt is best player I've ever witnessed and from a pure statistical standpoint I think Watt's 4 year prime is better than any other defender ever.

[FinneasGage]

prime jj watt the best d-lineman i've seen in my life 

[Nabbs4u]

4 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Add 2 cents to a conversation..?

Cute response but hey keep acting like a Mitch by all means.

[dtait93]

Imagine if in White’s 21 sack season he played in all 16 games instead of only 12. Guy was insane.

[ET80]

8 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

Average size of OL in 1990s: 6'4, 300 lbs

Average size of OL in 2015: 6'5, 312 lbs

per this article

I was going to try to talk this point up, but this actually rebuts my point. So, I'll bring this up in defense of Watt:

Back in White's prime, you didn't have quick strike/quick read offenses that you do now. Bill Walsh had the West Coast offense, but many offenses were more vertical in nature, and QBs took 5-7 step drops and THEN waited 3-5 seconds for plays to develop downfield. That was the norm in the passing game back then. 

In addition - back during that time, you had three examples of "athletic" QBs in John Elway, Steve Young (who really didn't get his start until the mid 90s) and Randall Cunningham (who played with White, so it's not like White ever had to chase him down). Guys like Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, Troy Aikman? They could move around a bit, but they weren't going to escape if you had them dead to rights on any particular play. Amazing, HOF QBs, yes - but sitting ducks in the pocket when facing a blitz and not able to check it down quickly. 

You take those two things together - an offensive system that was designed to keep a QB standing in the pocket, and QBs that isn't the best athlete in the world - you can make an assumption that sacks might be easier to come by vs now. 

Still gotta make the play, which White was able to do at a legendary rate... but food for thought.

[Soko]

5 hours ago, Nabbs4u said:

Cute response but hey keep acting like a Mitch by all means.

Nah, you’re right. 

Anything said that isn’t in favor of White must be attacks on his career. Makes sense!

[Soko]

5 hours ago, Nabbs4u said:

Cute response but hey keep acting like a Mitch by all means.

Nah, you’re right. 

Anything said that isn’t in favor of White must be attacks on his career. Makes sense!

Your response was almost exactly “why point out something against Reggie White if not to discredit his dominance?” One of us is sensitive on this topic, alright...

[Soko]

9 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

"Back in the day"... man you make it sound like we're talking about the infant NFL when players had other real jobs. We're talking 25 years ago, the physical make-up of football players has not changed all that much in such a short amount of time, and most of the changes can be attributed to the changes in how the game is played rather than the players being physically superior.

Average size of OL in 1990s: 6'4, 300 lbs

Average size of OL in 2015: 6'5, 312 lbs

per this article

So 1 inch and 12 pounds? Please. That's small enough where you could even chalk it up to different measuring practices. This shouldn't even enter the argument, we're not trying to compare Don Hudson with Jerry Rice here.

White and Watt’s career is a near 30 year gap (85’ vs 11’). “Back in the day” is accurate for ~30 some odd years IMO...

Here are some HOFers that coincide with White’s career:

Randall McDaniel (88’-01’): 6’4, 276

Anthony Muñoz (80’-92’): 6’6, 278

Mike Webster (70’-90’): 6’1, 255

Mark Stepnoski (89’-01’): 6’2, 269

Dermontti Dawson (88’-00’): 6’2, 288

Mike Munchak (82’-93’): 6’3, 281

Jackie Slater (76’-95’): 6’4, 277

So some disclaimers here: I know there are still a bunch of other guys that were modern sized linemen. And I’m not knowledgeable enough on these players to know whether or not they gained significant weight during their careers. 

The point is just to highlight that there were a number of players that were absolutely undersized compared to today. I can’t imagine there being any offensive linemen that play under 300 poiunds in today’s NFL (although I’m sure you could find a handful).

[RandyMossIsBoss]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

White and Watt’s career is a near 30 year gap (85’ vs 11’). “Back in the day” is accurate for ~30 some odd years IMO...

Here are some HOFers that coincide with White’s career:

Randall McDaniel (88’-01’): 6’4, 276

Anthony Muñoz (80’-92’): 6’6, 278

Mike Webster (70’-90’): 6’1, 255

Mark Stepnoski (89’-01’): 6’2, 269

Dermontti Dawson (88’-00’): 6’2, 288

Mike Munchak (82’-93’): 6’3, 281

Jackie Slater (76’-95’): 6’4, 277

So some disclaimers here: I know there are still a bunch of other guys that were modern sized linemen. And I’m not knowledgeable enough on these players to know whether or not they gained significant weight during their careers. 

The point is just to highlight that there were a number of players that were absolutely undersized compared to today. I can’t imagine there being any offensive linemen that play under 300 poiunds in today’s NFL (although I’m sure you could find a handful).

but why go back all the way to 85 when we saw Reggie White dominate as recently as 1998? Sure, his best 4 years came in the mid 80s, but if he was able to be an all-pro at 37 with 16 sacks in 1998, why would we expect White to be any less effective in the league a mere 15 years later, especially if he was in his prime?

[JaguarCrazy2832]

On 9/5/2018 at 2:12 PM, Outpost31 said:

True, but I think the rules protecting quarterbacks outweigh the passing attempts.  At worst they're a push, so Watt's playmaking ability sets him apart in my opinion. 

I don't see how the rule changes gives a 200 pass attempt advantage to Watt. 

[RandyMossIsBoss]

7 hours ago, ET80 said:

I was going to try to talk this point up, but this actually rebuts my point. So, I'll bring this up in defense of Watt:

Back in White's prime, you didn't have quick strike/quick read offenses that you do now. Bill Walsh had the West Coast offense, but many offenses were more vertical in nature, and QBs took 5-7 step drops and THEN waited 3-5 seconds for plays to develop downfield. That was the norm in the passing game back then. 

In addition - back during that time, you had three examples of "athletic" QBs in John Elway, Steve Young (who really didn't get his start until the mid 90s) and Randall Cunningham (who played with White, so it's not like White ever had to chase him down). Guys like Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, Troy Aikman? They could move around a bit, but they weren't going to escape if you had them dead to rights on any particular play. Amazing, HOF QBs, yes - but sitting ducks in the pocket when facing a blitz and not able to check it down quickly. 

You take those two things together - an offensive system that was designed to keep a QB standing in the pocket, and QBs that isn't the best athlete in the world - you can make an assumption that sacks might be easier to come by vs now. 

Still gotta make the play, which White was able to do at a legendary rate... but food for thought.

Well we can easily check that theory by looking at sack rates over the years.

2017- 6.4% on 34.2 pass attempts per game

1995- 6.1% on 34.8 pass attempts per game

1990- 7.3% on 30.2 pass attempts per game

1985- 8.3% on 32.2 pass attempts per game

 

Virtually no difference in terms of the difficulty in obtaining sacks among 1990, 1995 an 2017 (the higher rate in 90 is offset by lower pass attempts). 1985 you could certainly say it was easier to get sacks by the look of it.

 

The numbers do not support the theory that it would have been easier for White to get sacks than Watt based on era. If QBs were less mobile, then perhaps OLs were simply better?

[DLF54927]

3 minutes ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

but why go back all the way to 85 when we saw Reggie White dominate as recently as 1998? Sure, his best 4 years came in the mid 80s, but if he was able to be an all-pro at 37 with 16 sacks in 1998, why would we expect White to be any less effective in the league a mere 15 years later, especially if he was in his prime?

I imagine it's to hammer home the completely irrelevant "fact." 

White had no problem one-arm tossing guys like Stringer and Allen. Hell, he tossed Cris Carter like Carter was a toddler.

Rare talent that even a guy like Watt doesn't match, IMO.

 

[showtime]

In both of their primes it's really close.  Anyone that can't acknowledge that is beyond bias.  I would give a very slight edge to White, but Watt is one of the greatest ever as well.

[Soko]

1 hour ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

but why go back all the way to 85 when we saw Reggie White dominate as recently as 1998? Sure, his best 4 years came in the mid 80s, but if he was able to be an all-pro at 37 with 16 sacks in 1998, why would we expect White to be any less effective in the league a mere 15 years later, especially if he was in his prime?

We wouldn’t assume that, and he basically wasn’t any less dominant.

You’re really debating me on whether or not “back in the day” was warranted or not? White started playing before I was born, so yeah, he’s a “back in the day” kind of player for me. 

Again, there were a fair amount of players that were playing at a much smaller size than the modern guys nowadays. 

[Bobikus]

5 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

Well we can easily check that theory by looking at sack rates over the years.

2017- 6.4% on 34.2 pass attempts per game

1995- 6.1% on 34.8 pass attempts per game

1990- 7.3% on 30.2 pass attempts per game

1985- 8.3% on 32.2 pass attempts per game

 

Virtually no difference in terms of the difficulty in obtaining sacks among 1990, 1995 an 2017 (the higher rate in 90 is offset by lower pass attempts). 1985 you could certainly say it was easier to get sacks by the look of it.

 

The numbers do not support the theory that it would have been easier for White to get sacks than Watt based on era. If QBs were less mobile, then perhaps OLs were simply better?

I wouldn't call that virtually no difference, we're talking about like, a 10-20% difference in sacks per game between 85 and now.