Jon Gruden and "The Plan"

[Silver&Black88]

Look. You guys know I try to be level headed overall and that I don't like jumping the gun before seeing things partially play out. But. Am I crazy or just missing something here? I don't see much of a plan at all.

Completely bungled the WR position. Nelson was a good idea if we could add another contributor....like Bryant...except Bryant was a total failure. Gruden got played by whoever chirped in his ear about the guy. And now we wasted a 3rd round pick. Then there was talking up Switzer/Whalen all offseason and now neither are on the team. Like, how? We wound up letting Roberts have his job back completely unchallenged when he did NOTHING in TC to warrant keeping it. Biases aside, he doesn't run crisp routes or have consistent hands. I don't get it. I've said it a few times: I think we really are going to need to lean on TEs and RBs in our passing game this year. But maybe that was the plan? Hard to know. Doesn't seem like this was thought out.

Botched the OT situation. If we have such an eye for talent, why talk up David Sharpe so much only to cut him? If we have such good coaching, how could we not mold ANY of the OTs into even serviceable backups? He totally panicked in the draft with the one track mindedness. I get wanting to draft someone to protect Carr but we got hosed by AZ no matter how you look at it. Maybe part of it is on Reggie, idk. But at this point I think its even conceivable to imagine Gruden standing pat and taking Kolton at 10. Having McGlinchey/Miller backing up Penn on the left would have been fine with me. But the right side? Brandon Parker and Giacomini? Are you effing serious? I get that we can't have marquee players all along the line, but that's absolute trash. You can't cover every hole in one offseason, I guess.

But why give Connor Cook so many chances? EJ could have used those reps. Not saying he's great but maybe could have been alright as our backup with better reps. Then panicking again and dealing a 5th for McCarron. I think he can be an ok backup, but he was all but assured to be cut. A 7th? Sure I guess. But a 5th? That can be a value spot for a LB or RB. Or punter if you know how to draft one....

I'm trying to focus more on offense and macro stuff since Guenther is our guy on D. But at the same time, we have DRC come in and basically instantly become our starting CB? After jocking Conley all offseason? And why is Melvin in the doghouse? He didn't look bad at all playing in preseason. But the thing which vexes me is the scrambling going on right now. LaFell and the RT moves included. Like.....did you not plan this out at all? Or was your plan just utter trash and completely failed?

Speaking of crashing and burning, we've reached the icing on the cake. Actually, Khalil Mack is basically a 5 layer cake his own damn self. I've spoken my thoughts on this already and everyone has processed it and formed their own opinion by now. But I'd like to address another aspect of the deal now: its the epitome of a panic move. I don't mean to parrot Tim Kawakami here (who shares my sentiment on The Athletic) but this was an emotional move to its core. Mack is a team guy, which is evident to anyone in the building in Alameda. He won't want to let his teammates down. You have the leverage. Be shrewd and make him play this year. He won't turn down game checks, they pile up. After the year, try to hammer out a deal. If it still doesn't take, franchise and trade him before the draft. Unfortunately that is how the game is played. Instead of getting worked up and trading a HOF talent for lesser value (the 2nd rounder we gave up still bothers me) right before the season because he hasn't turned up to kiss the ring.

I think its kind of blatant that this was a panic move with the ilk of hurt ego a bit as well. Why do I feel this way? Look how Gruden went in on Reggie. You know Reggie would have gone cold blooded like I just said or just paid the guy. He cut his teeth in GB, they reward team guys or play calculated hardball. When trying to explain the outcome, Gruden sputtered and finger pointed at Reggie almost entirely. Sure, its hard to pay 2 guys 20+ mill. Just reiterate that. Don't go out of your way to bash Reggie, your teammate. I don't know if it was malicious so much as trying to get the burners off him since his feet are to the flame right now. But you don't do that. That's some coward stuff.

If you don't believe in the talent here, great. Keep driving the point home of 1 mega expensive player vs a lot of other contributors. Not trying to be a Reggie apologist, he needs to improve as well...but just, wow. This, to me, illustrates Gruden is not ready to be a football czar. He needs to be checked. I won't pick on winning a Lombardi with Dungy's team because he built a contender with us in his own right. But Gruden does not deserve the same kind of deference as Belicheck. I don't like that guy, but you can't argue with his results. This was a Belicheck move, but he never gave up a HOF talent in their prime like this. Chandler Jones was good, but no Mack. Same for Jamie Collins (plus he wasn't a pass rusher). Seymour & Wilfork were old. Jimmy G is an outlier to me, but even still he was unproven. Regardless, those moves all came well into a well-established and successful tenure where everything had been purposely thought out. Not year one into a half-baked trainwreck offseason.

Not everything will always work out. But I'm pretty flabbergasted by this whole turn of events thus far. I hope everything works out with the new picks. They had better, for Gruden's sake.

[NYRaider]

My biggest thing is, Gruden and Reggie knew that Khalil was going to get $20M+ on his new deal. In his press conference, Gruden said that they looked at it and determined that having two guys making $20M+ would've limited their ability to build a good football team around them. And while I understand that, didn't they know this back in May/April? They should've dealt him during the draft so we could've added another impact player in the first round that could contribute for us this season. 

[NYRaider]

16 minutes ago, Silver&Black88 said:

. But the right side? Brandon Parker and Giacomini? Are you effing serious? I get that we can't have marquee players all along the line, but that's absolute trash. You can't cover every hole in one offseason, I guess.

 

Why so much hate for Brandon Parker? He seems to have all of the tools. 

[Silver&Black88]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

Why so much hate for Brandon Parker? He seems to have all of the tools. 

So did Bruce Campbell. Point being, he's an unknown rookie from a small school. If I'm spouting off about protecting my young QB, no way do I back up the sentiment with that kind of player and Giacomini.

[Totty]

1 minute ago, Silver&Black88 said:

So did Bruce Campbell. Point being, he's an unknown rookie from a small school. If I'm spouting off about protecting my young QB, no way do I back up the sentiment with that kind of player and Giacomini.

Is it bad I want Austin Howard back?

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, Silver&Black88 said:

So did Bruce Campbell. Point being, he's an unknown rookie from a small school. If I'm spouting off about protecting my young QB, no way do I back up the sentiment with that kind of player and Giacomini.

This year's tackle class was pretty weak though and I think that the staff had faith that Giacomini could be a stop gap for us this year. If the tackle situation looks poor early on I could see them shifting KO out to RT and moving Penn back to LT. 

[NYRaider]

Parker gave up 6 pressures, 2 sacks, and had a holding penalty in the senior bowl, dear lord. 

[raiders90]

that's a great post, all this mistakes are the blueprint for the future????

Starting DRC is ridiculous, hope i'm wrong and we win multiple titles but this is a terrible start.

[808sinfour4time]

I don’t see a plan other than to write off the next two years in order to build a contender in Gruden’s image by the time the team starts playing in its new stadium. I’m not particularly optimistic about the current regime’s ability to pull that off.

And I don’t think the Patriot companions work either. Like our Moderator (and Voice of Reason), I agree that the Garoppolo trade is an outlier for Belichick. But the financial arguments make more sense in the Garoppolo situation. While I am at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument that having $45-50 million per year tied up in two players creates significant roster-building challenges, there’s a manifest difference between paying (1) a back-up tens of millions of dollars per year to probably sit on the bench and (2) a former DPOY who made All-Pro at two positions in the same year more than $20 million per year to actually play. Plus, the Patriots were doing Garoppolo a solid because he desperately wanted to play. He’d done his time. (One might argue the Raiders have also done Mack a solid, but that involves conceding a level of institutional incompetence I’d thought we’d left in the past.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

I also don’t think the Jamie Collins/Chandler Jones comparisons work either. And that’s admittedly just an opinion, but it’s an opinion informed by opinions that I don’t think are particularly controversial:

1a: Mack > Collins

1b: Mack > Jones

2: Belichick > Gruden

3: Belichick > McKenzie

The Mack trade mostly fills me with dread, but so does the Bryant debacle (and how it's been spun). Our front office was played like a piano by the Steelers. And the failure to own up to the mistake is depressingly late-Tampa Gruden. Telling and not a good look.

I hope this all works out for the fans’ sake. But I too hope it works out for Gruden’s sake. He is our coach, after all. But given where he’s at in a ten-year contract, does Gruden even have to worry about whether it works out? His leash is so long it doesn’t really function as a leash. And even if this is such an obvious train wreck at the end of year four that he’s jettisoned, he’ll still presumably have tens of millions of dollars (if not $60 million!) to make him quite happy.

[justwinbaby81]

Started reading and realized its a huge post, so I will come back and read it (I am sure it's well thought out). For now I got to the part about pass catching options and whether or not RB/TE will be a major role or if Roberts is a key lass catcher. My impression has always been a resounding YES that RB and TE will be larger share of passing game. I just picked a successful year of Gruden offense (2001) so it may be cherry picking, but RB/FB accounted for 136 catches of 362. TE Roland Williams had more receptions and targets than Jerry Porter. Roberts hate is overblown as this offense will rely more on his blocking than catching.

[riceman80]

Beautiful post that shares all my thoughts to a T. I see no direction in any of our offseason plans.

I hate myself cuz i was maybe the biggest Chucky supporter on here but i(and everybody else) knew what would happen if he was given GM power. And now we're seeing it already.

I wanna see how our offense does(i already expect our D to be pretty underwhelming) and ill reserve final judgement till next offseason but if there's a repeat, i'll chalk it up as a failure and expect it to be a long time before we become competitive again. I hope im wrong but the early results weren't just bad, they've been disasterous imo.

I will say this, Gruden put an unreal amount of pressure on himself to succeed with his mistakes. 100 mil was enough pressure but after the Bryant and Mack trades, he's already in the flames for his roster moves. Oakland is gonna want wins now cuz i feel like his botched offseason culminating with the Mack trade is gonna turn alot of the fans against him cuz the hometown was hoping for a much better goodbye then what theyve seen so far and, if we're going full rebuild, its gonna be a rough couple years in Oakland for Chucky.

[big_palooka]

I've tried my best to rationalize this offseason, and I just can't. 8 months into a 10 year contract and I feel defeated as a fan. And it's not just Mack trade. 

Everything you've stated here @Silver&Black88is on point. 

Starting with the draft, it reeked of desperation. And we can get excited that Key and Hurst fell in the draft. And maybe even tip a cap to the PJ hall pick that felt like a reach at the time, but the Miller pick has stuck in my craw. The trade down value was pathetic. But... we saw Reggie do it in 2013, so who's to blame? Miller needs to develop into a probowl T for me to buy anything to do with that pick and trade. Desperate, forced and shortsighted.

Think about this.... it's week 1. You cut both your backup QBs. Will McCarron be ready to go if Carr gets hurt? And you've got Penn off injury learning RT in a couple weeks and your raw rookie on the other side who got pushed around in preseason. Good luck!

This entire offseason has made little to no sense. All we can hope for is that Gruden's offense is a an unexpected juggernaut and all will be forgot. Winning cleanses everything... but man, if the losses start piling up, things are going to get really ugly with the fans. 

 

 

[NYRaider]

6 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

Think about this.... it's week 1. You cut both your backup QBs. Will McCarron be ready to go if Carr gets hurt? And you've got Penn off injury learning RT in a couple weeks and your raw rookie on the other side who got pushed around in preseason. Good luck!

1

Miller is going to be a player, he already looks much better then he did at UCLA and played well at the end of the preseason. 

[riceman80]

51 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Miller is going to be a player, he already looks much better then he did at UCLA and played well at the end of the preseason. 

I hope youre right but ill reserve judgement till its full tilt against the Von Millers and Joey Bosas of our division. He gonna be tested as a pass protector in our division

[Humble_Beast]

8 hours ago, Silver&Black88 said:

Look. You guys know I try to be level headed overall and that I don't like jumping the gun before seeing things partially play out. But. Am I crazy or just missing something here? I don't see much of a plan at all.

Completely bungled the WR position. Nelson was a good idea if we could add another contributor....like Bryant...except Bryant was a total failure. Gruden got played by whoever chirped in his ear about the guy. And now we wasted a 3rd round pick. Then there was talking up Switzer/Whalen all offseason and now neither are on the team. Like, how? We wound up letting Roberts have his job back completely unchallenged when he did NOTHING in TC to warrant keeping it. Biases aside, he doesn't run crisp routes or have consistent hands. I don't get it. I've said it a few times: I think we really are going to need to lean on TEs and RBs in our passing game this year. But maybe that was the plan? Hard to know. Doesn't seem like this was thought out.

Botched the OT situation. If we have such an eye for talent, why talk up David Sharpe so much only to cut him? If we have such good coaching, how could we not mold ANY of the OTs into even serviceable backups? He totally panicked in the draft with the one track mindedness. I get wanting to draft someone to protect Carr but we got hosed by AZ no matter how you look at it. Maybe part of it is on Reggie, idk. But at this point I think its even conceivable to imagine Gruden standing pat and taking Kolton at 10. Having McGlinchey/Miller backing up Penn on the left would have been fine with me. But the right side? Brandon Parker and Giacomini? Are you effing serious? I get that we can't have marquee players all along the line, but that's absolute trash. You can't cover every hole in one offseason, I guess.

But why give Connor Cook so many chances? EJ could have used those reps. Not saying he's great but maybe could have been alright as our backup with better reps. Then panicking again and dealing a 5th for McCarron. I think he can be an ok backup, but he was all but assured to be cut. A 7th? Sure I guess. But a 5th? That can be a value spot for a LB or RB. Or punter if you know how to draft one....

I'm trying to focus more on offense and macro stuff since Guenther is our guy on D. But at the same time, we have DRC come in and basically instantly become our starting CB? After jocking Conley all offseason? And why is Melvin in the doghouse? He didn't look bad at all playing in preseason. But the thing which vexes me is the scrambling going on right now. LaFell and the RT moves included. Like.....did you not plan this out at all? Or was your plan just utter trash and completely failed?

Speaking of crashing and burning, we've reached the icing on the cake. Actually, Khalil Mack is basically a 5 layer cake his own damn self. I've spoken my thoughts on this already and everyone has processed it and formed their own opinion by now. But I'd like to address another aspect of the deal now: its the epitome of a panic move. I don't mean to parrot Tim Kawakami here (who shares my sentiment on The Athletic) but this was an emotional move to its core. Mack is a team guy, which is evident to anyone in the building in Alameda. He won't want to let his teammates down. You have the leverage. Be shrewd and make him play this year. He won't turn down game checks, they pile up. After the year, try to hammer out a deal. If it still doesn't take, franchise and trade him before the draft. Unfortunately that is how the game is played. Instead of getting worked up and trading a HOF talent for lesser value (the 2nd rounder we gave up still bothers me) right before the season because he hasn't turned up to kiss the ring.

I think its kind of blatant that this was a panic move with the ilk of hurt ego a bit as well. Why do I feel this way? Look how Gruden went in on Reggie. You know Reggie would have gone cold blooded like I just said or just paid the guy. He cut his teeth in GB, they reward team guys or play calculated hardball. When trying to explain the outcome, Gruden sputtered and finger pointed at Reggie almost entirely. Sure, its hard to pay 2 guys 20+ mill. Just reiterate that. Don't go out of your way to bash Reggie, your teammate. I don't know if it was malicious so much as trying to get the burners off him since his feet are to the flame right now. But you don't do that. That's some coward stuff.

If you don't believe in the talent here, great. Keep driving the point home of 1 mega expensive player vs a lot of other contributors. Not trying to be a Reggie apologist, he needs to improve as well...but just, wow. This, to me, illustrates Gruden is not ready to be a football czar. He needs to be checked. I won't pick on winning a Lombardi with Dungy's team because he built a contender with us in his own right. But Gruden does not deserve the same kind of deference as Belicheck. I don't like that guy, but you can't argue with his results. This was a Belicheck move, but he never gave up a HOF talent in their prime like this. Chandler Jones was good, but no Mack. Same for Jamie Collins (plus he wasn't a pass rusher). Seymour & Wilfork were old. Jimmy G is an outlier to me, but even still he was unproven. Regardless, those moves all came well into a well-established and successful tenure where everything had been purposely thought out. Not year one into a half-baked trainwreck offseason.

Not everything will always work out. But I'm pretty flabbergasted by this whole turn of events thus far. I hope everything works out with the new picks. They had better, for Gruden's sake.

with that said, this draft could be good:

• Kolton could be the LT 
• Hurst and Hall look good in area of need DT
• Key could be a steal and be a force on the edge
• Nelson and Parker have potential at position of need