Jon Gruden and "The Plan"

[Bitty 2.0]

13 hours ago, Silver&Black88 said:

Look. You guys know I try to be level headed overall and that I don't like jumping the gun before seeing things partially play out. But. Am I crazy or just missing something here? I don't see much of a plan at all.

Completely bungled the WR position. Nelson was a good idea if we could add another contributor....like Bryant...except Bryant was a total failure. Gruden got played by whoever chirped in his ear about the guy. And now we wasted a 3rd round pick. Then there was talking up Switzer/Whalen all offseason and now neither are on the team. Like, how? We wound up letting Roberts have his job back completely unchallenged when he did NOTHING in TC to warrant keeping it. Biases aside, he doesn't run crisp routes or have consistent hands. I don't get it. I've said it a few times: I think we really are going to need to lean on TEs and RBs in our passing game this year. But maybe that was the plan? Hard to know. Doesn't seem like this was thought out.

Botched the OT situation. If we have such an eye for talent, why talk up David Sharpe so much only to cut him? If we have such good coaching, how could we not mold ANY of the OTs into even serviceable backups? He totally panicked in the draft with the one track mindedness. I get wanting to draft someone to protect Carr but we got hosed by AZ no matter how you look at it. Maybe part of it is on Reggie, idk. But at this point I think its even conceivable to imagine Gruden standing pat and taking Kolton at 10. Having McGlinchey/Miller backing up Penn on the left would have been fine with me. But the right side? Brandon Parker and Giacomini? Are you effing serious? I get that we can't have marquee players all along the line, but that's absolute trash. You can't cover every hole in one offseason, I guess.

But why give Connor Cook so many chances? EJ could have used those reps. Not saying he's great but maybe could have been alright as our backup with better reps. Then panicking again and dealing a 5th for McCarron. I think he can be an ok backup, but he was all but assured to be cut. A 7th? Sure I guess. But a 5th? That can be a value spot for a LB or RB. Or punter if you know how to draft one....

I'm trying to focus more on offense and macro stuff since Guenther is our guy on D. But at the same time, we have DRC come in and basically instantly become our starting CB? After jocking Conley all offseason? And why is Melvin in the doghouse? He didn't look bad at all playing in preseason. But the thing which vexes me is the scrambling going on right now. LaFell and the RT moves included. Like.....did you not plan this out at all? Or was your plan just utter trash and completely failed?

Speaking of crashing and burning, we've reached the icing on the cake. Actually, Khalil Mack is basically a 5 layer cake his own damn self. I've spoken my thoughts on this already and everyone has processed it and formed their own opinion by now. But I'd like to address another aspect of the deal now: its the epitome of a panic move. I don't mean to parrot Tim Kawakami here (who shares my sentiment on The Athletic) but this was an emotional move to its core. Mack is a team guy, which is evident to anyone in the building in Alameda. He won't want to let his teammates down. You have the leverage. Be shrewd and make him play this year. He won't turn down game checks, they pile up. After the year, try to hammer out a deal. If it still doesn't take, franchise and trade him before the draft. Unfortunately that is how the game is played. Instead of getting worked up and trading a HOF talent for lesser value (the 2nd rounder we gave up still bothers me) right before the season because he hasn't turned up to kiss the ring.

I think its kind of blatant that this was a panic move with the ilk of hurt ego a bit as well. Why do I feel this way? Look how Gruden went in on Reggie. You know Reggie would have gone cold blooded like I just said or just paid the guy. He cut his teeth in GB, they reward team guys or play calculated hardball. When trying to explain the outcome, Gruden sputtered and finger pointed at Reggie almost entirely. Sure, its hard to pay 2 guys 20+ mill. Just reiterate that. Don't go out of your way to bash Reggie, your teammate. I don't know if it was malicious so much as trying to get the burners off him since his feet are to the flame right now. But you don't do that. That's some coward stuff.

If you don't believe in the talent here, great. Keep driving the point home of 1 mega expensive player vs a lot of other contributors. Not trying to be a Reggie apologist, he needs to improve as well...but just, wow. This, to me, illustrates Gruden is not ready to be a football czar. He needs to be checked. I won't pick on winning a Lombardi with Dungy's team because he built a contender with us in his own right. But Gruden does not deserve the same kind of deference as Belicheck. I don't like that guy, but you can't argue with his results. This was a Belicheck move, but he never gave up a HOF talent in their prime like this. Chandler Jones was good, but no Mack. Same for Jamie Collins (plus he wasn't a pass rusher). Seymour & Wilfork were old. Jimmy G is an outlier to me, but even still he was unproven. Regardless, those moves all came well into a well-established and successful tenure where everything had been purposely thought out. Not year one into a half-baked trainwreck offseason.

Not everything will always work out. But I'm pretty flabbergasted by this whole turn of events thus far. I hope everything works out with the new picks. They had better, for Gruden's sake.

I think you’re being unfair to Gruden.

Reggie has history of poor trades.

The idea of the trades was probably Grudens  but the execution was all Reggie.

What kind of a bonehead GM doesn’t put in a suspension clause when trading for a player thats been suspended twice?

 

[big_palooka]

10 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Miller is going to be a player, he already looks much better then he did at UCLA and played well at the end of the preseason. 

He was getting worked by the Packers last I saw him. And looking better than he did at UCLA isn't saying much as he looked pretty lackluster there.

I have no belief in Cable to develop players (see the RT spot all offseason). End of the day, will he be worth a top 15 pick? 

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, Bitty 2.0 said:

I think you’re being unfair to Gruden.

Reggie has history of poor trades.

The idea of the trades was probably Grudens  but the execution was all Reggie.

What kind of a bonehead GM doesn’t put in a suspension clause when trading for a player thats been suspended twice?

 

You're kidding yourself if you think Reggie McKenzie who loves draft capital would give a 3rd round pick for Bryant. Just saying.

Gruden is 100% in control of these decisions. Thinking otherwise is just fooling yourselves. He's in total control.

[justwinbaby81]

Tom Cable has got to be the most overrated position coach in the league. I didnt understand why it was considered a good hire. I think both Sparano and Tice were much better.

[Bitty 2.0]

39 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

You're kidding yourself if you think Reggie McKenzie who loves draft capital would give a 3rd round pick for Bryant. Just saying.

Gruden is 100% in control of these decisions. Thinking otherwise is just fooling yourselves. He's in total control.

 I’m not saying it wasn’t what his idea, I’m saying Reggie did the negotiating 

[SimonGruber]

I really hope I’m eating crow and Jon Gruden has Carr and Co hummin like it’s 2016. 

[SBXISBXVSBXVIII]

3 minutes ago, SimonGruber said:

I really hope I’m eating crow and Jon Gruden has Carr and Co hummin like it’s 2016. 

So you don't want them to be successful?

[justwinbaby81]

28 minutes ago, SBXISBXVSBXVIII said:

So you don't want them to be successful?

We had a great offense in 2016. We were on our way to first round bye and Carr was getting MVP consideration. You're saying Gruden needs to go further than that? I'd consider it a win. That offensive line was a beast and Carr was an assassin. We could probably get more from Lynch/Martin than Murray/Richard but otherwise 2016 is a good benchmark.

[SBXISBXVSBXVIII]

2 minutes ago, justwinbaby81 said:

We had a great offense in 2016. We were on our way to first round bye and Carr was getting MVP consideration. You're saying Gruden needs to go further than that? I'd consider it a win. That offensive line was a beast and Carr was an assassin. We could probably get more from Lynch/Martin than Murray/Richard but otherwise 2016 is a good benchmark.

You and I are comprehending it differently

[Frankie2Gunz]

18 hours ago, Silver&Black88 said:

Look. You guys know I try to be level headed overall and that I don't like jumping the gun before seeing things partially play out. But. Am I crazy or just missing something here? I don't see much of a plan at all.

Completely bungled the WR position. Nelson was a good idea if we could add another contributor....like Bryant...except Bryant was a total failure. Gruden got played by whoever chirped in his ear about the guy. And now we wasted a 3rd round pick. Then there was talking up Switzer/Whalen all offseason and now neither are on the team. Like, how? We wound up letting Roberts have his job back completely unchallenged when he did NOTHING in TC to warrant keeping it. Biases aside, he doesn't run crisp routes or have consistent hands. I don't get it. I've said it a few times: I think we really are going to need to lean on TEs and RBs in our passing game this year. But maybe that was the plan? Hard to know. Doesn't seem like this was thought out.

Botched the OT situation. If we have such an eye for talent, why talk up David Sharpe so much only to cut him? If we have such good coaching, how could we not mold ANY of the OTs into even serviceable backups? He totally panicked in the draft with the one track mindedness. I get wanting to draft someone to protect Carr but we got hosed by AZ no matter how you look at it. Maybe part of it is on Reggie, idk. But at this point I think its even conceivable to imagine Gruden standing pat and taking Kolton at 10. Having McGlinchey/Miller backing up Penn on the left would have been fine with me. But the right side? Brandon Parker and Giacomini? Are you effing serious? I get that we can't have marquee players all along the line, but that's absolute trash. You can't cover every hole in one offseason, I guess.

But why give Connor Cook so many chances? EJ could have used those reps. Not saying he's great but maybe could have been alright as our backup with better reps. Then panicking again and dealing a 5th for McCarron. I think he can be an ok backup, but he was all but assured to be cut. A 7th? Sure I guess. But a 5th? That can be a value spot for a LB or RB. Or punter if you know how to draft one....

I'm trying to focus more on offense and macro stuff since Guenther is our guy on D. But at the same time, we have DRC come in and basically instantly become our starting CB? After jocking Conley all offseason? And why is Melvin in the doghouse? He didn't look bad at all playing in preseason. But the thing which vexes me is the scrambling going on right now. LaFell and the RT moves included. Like.....did you not plan this out at all? Or was your plan just utter trash and completely failed?

Speaking of crashing and burning, we've reached the icing on the cake. Actually, Khalil Mack is basically a 5 layer cake his own damn self. I've spoken my thoughts on this already and everyone has processed it and formed their own opinion by now. But I'd like to address another aspect of the deal now: its the epitome of a panic move. I don't mean to parrot Tim Kawakami here (who shares my sentiment on The Athletic) but this was an emotional move to its core. Mack is a team guy, which is evident to anyone in the building in Alameda. He won't want to let his teammates down. You have the leverage. Be shrewd and make him play this year. He won't turn down game checks, they pile up. After the year, try to hammer out a deal. If it still doesn't take, franchise and trade him before the draft. Unfortunately that is how the game is played. Instead of getting worked up and trading a HOF talent for lesser value (the 2nd rounder we gave up still bothers me) right before the season because he hasn't turned up to kiss the ring.

I think its kind of blatant that this was a panic move with the ilk of hurt ego a bit as well. Why do I feel this way? Look how Gruden went in on Reggie. You know Reggie would have gone cold blooded like I just said or just paid the guy. He cut his teeth in GB, they reward team guys or play calculated hardball. When trying to explain the outcome, Gruden sputtered and finger pointed at Reggie almost entirely. Sure, its hard to pay 2 guys 20+ mill. Just reiterate that. Don't go out of your way to bash Reggie, your teammate. I don't know if it was malicious so much as trying to get the burners off him since his feet are to the flame right now. But you don't do that. That's some coward stuff.

If you don't believe in the talent here, great. Keep driving the point home of 1 mega expensive player vs a lot of other contributors. Not trying to be a Reggie apologist, he needs to improve as well...but just, wow. This, to me, illustrates Gruden is not ready to be a football czar. He needs to be checked. I won't pick on winning a Lombardi with Dungy's team because he built a contender with us in his own right. But Gruden does not deserve the same kind of deference as Belicheck. I don't like that guy, but you can't argue with his results. This was a Belicheck move, but he never gave up a HOF talent in their prime like this. Chandler Jones was good, but no Mack. Same for Jamie Collins (plus he wasn't a pass rusher). Seymour & Wilfork were old. Jimmy G is an outlier to me, but even still he was unproven. Regardless, those moves all came well into a well-established and successful tenure where everything had been purposely thought out. Not year one into a half-baked trainwreck offseason.

Not everything will always work out. But I'm pretty flabbergasted by this whole turn of events thus far. I hope everything works out with the new picks. They had better, for Gruden's sake.

Preach on my man.  I agree with everything but I stand by my point that you can't pay 2 players over 20 million.  I loved Mack as much as the next guy but what he was demanding was not feasible for the Raiders to pony up.  Time will tell if the Raiders made the right move or not but there is now more pressure than ever to draft studs early considering they now have 4 first round picks in the next 2 years.   

This year will be a hard pill to swallow, Im guessing 6 to 8 wins and that is due to an easy schedule.  I fully expect the "hate Gruden train" to rear it's head early and often.  I just hope that Carr can somehow muster a pro bowl type year with he talent around him because the last thing this team needs is to get him annihilated killing his confidence.  We've all see it happen before just look at his older brother.   

[justwinbaby81]

"Chandler Jones was good but no Mack"

Agreed but they aren't miles apart. Chandler Jones has 64 sacks in 6 seasons. A 1st team All-Pro. A SB champ.

Jones was traded for a 2nd round pick and Jonathan Cooper. We got the largest draft haul in NFL history for a defensive player. Before you go comparing to Bellichek keep that in mind.

Look I loved Mack as much as anyone else here. We get 2 1st round guys and the ~$17M extra space above and beyond those 2 1sts and their salaries. It wont ease any sting for this year, but from a long-term perspective this trade and who won it is far from decided.

[Darbsk]

Great post S&B88, I agree with practically all. At the start of the off-season we did indeed look like we had a plan - bring in the vets, get a real DC and some internal push, stretch the field at WR and add some blocking prowess. However, when some of those moves haven't panned out so well it does seem like sheer panic.

I remember well Gruden having great success with the team that Al built, the brilliant coaching, energy and excitement and I remember the heartache watching interception after interception in the Super Bowl we lost to him. I also remember his dismantling of Tony Dungy's team and his attempts to play GM that frankly made me very nervous at his signing. Like a lot of folks here, I like Gruden the coach but am terrified of Gruden the GM.

[justwinbaby81]

29 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Great post S&B88, I agree with practically all. At the start of the off-season we did indeed look like we had a plan - bring in the vets, get a real DC and some internal push, stretch the field at WR and add some blocking prowess. However, when some of those moves haven't panned out so well it does seem like sheer panic.

I remember well Gruden having great success with the team that Al built, the brilliant coaching, energy and excitement and I remember the heartache watching interception after interception in the Super Bowl we lost to him. I also remember his dismantling of Tony Dungy's team and his attempts to play GM that frankly made me very nervous at his signing. Like a lot of folks here, I like Gruden the coach but am terrified of Gruden the GM.

 

29 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I also remember his dismantling of Tony Dungy's team and his attempts to play GM that frankly made me very nervous at his signing. Like a lot of folks here, I like Gruden the coach but am terrified of Gruden the GM.

Again overblown. What specifically did he dismantle? Sapp walked when he signed with us. Yea, that worked out soooo well for us....

Simeon Rice and Derrick Brooks hung around, Brad Johnson faded away, Keyshawn and Lynch hit the road shortly after but were never the same. Specifically what did he dismantle about that team? An aging team hit its end, it wasnt dismantled. Unless you count brief stints from Tim Brown and Charlie Garner. He never rebuilt properly, specifically the QB position (which by the way is pretty tough to do with 2 1sts and 2 2nds out the window when they traded for Gruden himself), but what did he really dismantle? I need to know.

[Darbsk]

15 minutes ago, justwinbaby81 said:

 

Again overblown. What specifically did he dismantle? Sapp walked when he signed with us. Yea, that worked out soooo well for us....

Simeon Rice and Derrick Brooks hung around, Brad Johnson faded away, Keyshawn and Lynch hit the road shortly after but were never the same. Specifically what did he dismantle about that team? An aging team hit its end, it wasnt dismantled. Unless you count brief stints from Tim Brown and Charlie Garner. He never rebuilt properly, specifically the QB position (which by the way is pretty tough to do with 2 1sts and 2 2nds out the window when they traded for Gruden himself), but what did he really dismantle? I need to know.

I seem to recall him having a fall out with the incumbent GM who left briskly (can't recall his name but I think he went to Atlanta) and with a couple high profile players - maybe dismantling was the wrong phrase and I should have used re-tooling, the point I was trying to make was that I think Gruden is an excellent coach and specifically offensive mind but his moves in trades, draft picks and how he re-tooled or reshaped the roster in his image after players left or retired were not good at all - and he was complicit in some guys like Keyshawn leaving.

 

[Bitty 2.0]

40 minutes ago, justwinbaby81 said:

 

Again overblown. What specifically did he dismantle? Sapp walked when he signed with us. Yea, that worked out soooo well for us....

Simeon Rice and Derrick Brooks hung around, Brad Johnson faded away, Keyshawn and Lynch hit the road shortly after but were never the same. Specifically what did he dismantle about that team? An aging team hit its end, it wasnt dismantled. Unless you count brief stints from Tim Brown and Charlie Garner. He never rebuilt properly, specifically the QB position (which by the way is pretty tough to do with 2 1sts and 2 2nds out the window when they traded for Gruden himself), but what did he really dismantle? I need to know.

 Don’t forget Tampa Bay traded two first round picks and two second round picks for Gruden.