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[TitanSS]

52 minutes ago, -Hope- said:

yeah, that’s ridiculous. byard and casey are literally the only 3rd round picks we’ve hit on in what, a decade? come on.

To be honest, we haven't hit on many picks period in the last decade, independent on round. GM failure in the past is not a reason to sacrifice the future so we can go 9-7 the next two years instead of 8-8 and then for Tate's performance to fall off a cliff at 32.

I also listed Taywan Taylor because I knew everyone would flip out at the idea of having a successful draft pick as a good reason to keep draft picks, but apparently that's still going to be the only thing anyone takes from it. ?

That trade only makes sense for teams competing for this years Super Bowl. Period.

Edited October 30, 2018 by TitanSS

[TitanSS]

If we would have traded a third for Tate, he wouldn't have near the success with Mariota as he does with Stafford. Then everyone would become Captain Hindsight next year and be like "It's ridiculous to give up a 3rd for a player over 30. Why do we always try to get WRs at the end of their career. Blah blah". 

[titans0021]

8 minutes ago, TitanSS said:

To be honest, we haven't hit on many picks period in the last decade, independent on round. GM failure in the past is not a reason to sacrifice the future so we can go 9-7 the next two years instead of 8-8 and then for Tate's performance to fall off a cliff at 32.

I also listed Taywan Taylor because I knew everyone would flip out at the idea of having a successful draft pick as a good reason to keep draft picks, but apparently that's still going to be the only thing anyone takes from it. ?

That trade only makes sense for teams competing for this years Super Bowl. Period.

But then, when exactly is our SB window supposed to open up? After we give Marcus huge money? When we start a search for a new QB? When we have to pay Conklin and Byard big money?

Adding a receiver gives us a chance to actually evaluate our QB without having him throw touchdowns and downfield passes only to have them dropped. Or to have him hesitate because he has no confidence in his options. This group is doing the future of the franchise a massive disservice. That alone is worth a mid-round pick to try to fix all day.

Hell, we haven’t even brought in a free agent. We’re too busy adding a fullback so we can run more heavy sets.

[SerenityNow]

5 minutes ago, TitanSS said:

To be honest, we haven't hit on many picks period in the last decade, independent on round. GM failure in the past is not a reason to sacrifice the future so we can go 9-7 the next two years instead of 8-8 and then for Tate's performance to fall off a cliff at 32.

I also listed Taywan Taylor because I knew everyone would flip out at the idea of having a successful draft pick as a good reason to keep draft picks, but apparently that's still going to be the only thing anyone takes from it. ?

That trade only makes sense for teams competing for this years Super Bowl. Period.

Yeah that makes sense. It ultimately comes down to the fact that Jon mismanaged the roster in March/April that led to us shuffling trying to make a deal at the deadline to salvage our offense/season.  Everyone could see that we were an injury away from having a terrible receiving group in March. There were plenty of options out there to help with the depth of the group. It also really doesn't help us in the process of figuring out if Marcus is our long term solution either. It was just all around bad management from Jon on the receiver front.

[SerenityNow]

19 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Would you feel the same if Tate left after the year and we are left without a 3rd round pick this year?

That wouldn't have been ideal obviously, but I feel like it would've been worth it to add a competent receiver to the offense and give Marcus a consistent receiver that could actually catch the ball.  I would've liked to have taken a shot at making the playoffs this year and seen where we could go, but it's hard to see this offense going anywhere with the receiving group we have.  It's just a weird back and forth with this franchise that's hard to get a grasp on. It's almost like Jon can't decide whether he thinks we're rebuilding or trying to be a contender now.  Leaving this mediocre receiving group as is seems to hint that we're still rebuilding, but last year's draft strategy of only getting 4 draft picks hinted that he thought we were closer to being contenders than not.

The biggest gripe overall for me is that we're at a crucial stage with Marcus here, and we're not giving him a fair shake here at all.  He has a serious lack of talent around him, and we seem content to let another year of his development waste away. It's hard for a QB to succeed and grow when he doesn't have a single consistent receiver on the entire team.

[dtait93]

9 minutes ago, SerenityNow said:

That wouldn't have been ideal obviously, but I feel like it would've been worth it to add a competent receiver to the offense and give Marcus a consistent receiver that could actually catch the ball.  I would've liked to have taken a shot at making the playoffs this year and seen where we could go, but it's hard to see this offense going anywhere with the receiving group we have.  It's just a weird back and forth with this franchise that's hard to get a grasp on. It's almost like Jon can't decide whether he thinks we're rebuilding or trying to be a contender now.  Leaving this mediocre receiving group as is seems to hint that we're still rebuilding, but last year's draft strategy of only getting 4 draft picks hinted that he thought we were closer to being contenders than not.

The biggest gripe overall for me is that we're at a crucial stage with Marcus here, and we're not giving him a fair shake here at all.  He has a serious lack of talent around him, and we seem content to let another year of his development waste away. It's hard for a QB to succeed and grow when he doesn't have a single consistent receiver on the entire team.

Yeah it’s frustrating for sure, especially your last paragraph...I think we all agree with that.

But I think if we take a step back and are honest with ourselves about where we are, giving up a 3rd rounder for a receiver who by no means guarantees us a playoff spot and who very well may be only with us for 9 games just isn’t worth it. It’s too high of a risk at too steep of a price. I applaud Robinson for standing pat and not overpaying for him or Thomas but his blunder, as multiple people here have already mentioned, is not being better prepared for the situation we find ourselves in now. The time to correct our recieveing deficiencies was in the offseason, not in the middle of the season. It is an absolutely massive blunder that is too late to fix and unfortunately it may have cost us a playoff berth.

[KingTitan]

Well....It's not exactly like the Eagles were thought to be Super Bowl Ready last year either...were they? The year before they went 7-9. They didn't have a crazy strong draft.
Signed Alshon to an one year deal and Blount to an one year deal. Outside of that in FA they Kind of whiffed. They did sign  Foles so that was good, but it wasn't a blockbuster signing.
Then they traded for Ajayi, Jennigan, and Darby. None of which are superstars, but were just the pieces needed to lift the total team up.
The team as a whole was playing better than our team now, but my point remains. Entering that season, they weren't in a "Super Bowl window."  They created a window with good play and good moves. 

So I disagree with "we aren't close to winning a super bowl" or "we aren't winning." These good teams aren't teams of just a Superstar player. They are a collection of good players. The thought oh, I wouldn't trade a pick for that player or this player because they aren't worth it, I disagree with. You collect good players and hope they all can play together for those years you have them together.

Does KC have a true #1 WR? Someone you'd say we must stop?  No, they have a TE with good players at WR. Do the Rams have a #1 WR. No they have good players. Me personally, I'd rather have a WR core of say: Davis, Tate, Sharpe, Adam Humphries than Antonio Brown, Taywan Taylor, Shapre.  Yea you have an unstoppable WR, but that hasn't proven to be the winning recipe. 

Multiple good dependable WRs. I think Robinson missed a chance to get that. All for the chance to draft the next Lavelle Hawkins, Damian Williams, Chris Davis, Paul Williams, Courtney Roby.......
We can't have it both ways. We can't expect greatness out of mid round picks consistently and then get made at them when they fall right into the averages. 

[KingTitan]

Just for information sake:
3rd Round WRs from the last 10 years
2008: Earl Bennett, Early Doucet, Harry Douglas, Mario Manningham, Andre Caldwell
2009: Derrick Williams, Brandon Tate, Mike Wallace, Rames Barden, Patrick Turner, Deon Butler, Juaquin Igleasias
2010: Damian William, Brandon Lafell, Emmanuel Sanders, Jordan Shipley, Eric Decker, Andre Roberts Armanti Edwards, Taylor Price
2011: Austin Pettus, Leonard Hankerson, Vincent Brown, Jerrel Jennigan
2012: De'Vier Posey, TJ, Graham, Mohammaed Sanu, TY Hilton
2013: Terrance Williams, Kennan Allen, Marquise Goodwin, Markus Wheaton, Stedman Bailey
2014: Josh Huff, Donte Moncrief, John Brown
2015:  Tyler Lockett, Jaleen Strong, Chris Conley, Sammie Coates, Ty Montgomery
2016: Braxton Miller, Leonte Carroo
2017: Cooper Kupp, Taywan Taylor, Ardarius Stewart, Carlos Henderson, Chris Godwin, Kenny Golladay, Chad Williams
2018: Michael Gallup, Tre'Quan Smith

Now looking at that. You have: Mike Wallace, Emmanuel Sanders, Mohammed Sanu, Eric Decker, John Brown,TY Hilton, Harry Douglas Kennan Allen as the only 1,000 Yard receivers from that group (correct me if I'm wrong). So 8 players out of what 52 players turned into 1000 pass catchers. But we are afraid to send an 3rd for a proven player.

Check my stats and numbers...lol I'm in a rush.

 

[dtait93]

Sorry but we are not a Golden Tate or Demaryius Thomas away from contending for a Super Bowl.

Also, you can list the WR’s from the 2nd or even 1st round and look at the majority them busting. Why not just ship out a 1st or 2nd rounder for Tate if we go by that standard? Also, why do we have to spend a 3rd rounder on a WR? We can use that pick to fill a different position of need too. It’s not like the interior o-line has been that much better than the WR’s and TE’s...

[SerenityNow]

13 minutes ago, KingTitan said:

Just for information sake:
3rd Round WRs from the last 10 years
2008: Earl Bennett, Early Doucet, Harry Douglas, Mario Manningham, Andre Caldwell
2009: Derrick Williams, Brandon Tate, Mike Wallace, Rames Barden, Patrick Turner, Deon Butler, Juaquin Igleasias
2010: Damian William, Brandon Lafell, Emmanuel Sanders, Jordan Shipley, Eric Decker, Andre Roberts Armanti Edwards, Taylor Price
2011: Austin Pettus, Leonard Hankerson, Vincent Brown, Jerrel Jennigan
2012: De'Vier Posey, TJ, Graham, Mohammaed Sanu, TY Hilton
2013: Terrance Williams, Kennan Allen, Marquise Goodwin, Markus Wheaton, Stedman Bailey
2014: Josh Huff, Donte Moncrief, John Brown
2015:  Tyler Lockett, Jaleen Strong, Chris Conley, Sammie Coates, Ty Montgomery
2016: Braxton Miller, Leonte Carroo
2017: Cooper Kupp, Taywan Taylor, Ardarius Stewart, Carlos Henderson, Chris Godwin, Kenny Golladay, Chad Williams
2018: Michael Gallup, Tre'Quan Smith

Now looking at that. You have: Mike Wallace, Emmanuel Sanders, Mohammed Sanu, Eric Decker, John Brown,TY Hilton, Harry Douglas Kennan Allen as the only 1,000 Yard receivers from that group (correct me if I'm wrong). So 8 players out of what 52 players turned into 1000 pass catchers. But we are afraid to send an 3rd for a proven player.

Check my stats and numbers...lol I'm in a rush.

 

Great post, KT. This just reminds me though that I was beating the drum for Cooper Kupp coming out, and it just makes me real sad that we couldn't land him.  I thought he fit perfectly with everything Jon said he wanted in a receiver, and the Rams took him just a couple picks before we ended up taking Taywan. Who's to say though with our track record of developing receivers if he would've turned into anything close to what he is with the Rams. At least that's what I like to tell myself lol.

[KingTitan]

40 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Sorry but we are not a Golden Tate or Demaryius Thomas away from contending for a Super Bowl.

Also, you can list the WR’s from the 2nd or even 1st round and look at the majority them busting. Why not just ship out a 1st or 2nd rounder for Tate if we go by that standard? Also, why do we have to spend a 3rd rounder on a WR? We can use that pick to fill a different position of need too. It’s not like the interior o-line has been that much better than the WR’s and TE’s...

WR was the topic at hand that's why it's the focus of the post. 

And again, if a WR is worth an 1st then I'd be for it. Don't know if I'd done it for Cooper. Maybe an 2nd. 

But we are being realistic and that's why we don't send out an 1st for Tate. I'm not even saying I would have done it for an 3rd. But I don't think it would be end of the world if we did. 

But yes 1st round WRs bust all the time. 

We aren't one player from being a super bowl team. But we could be one player from being an better offense leading to a better team, leading to a better record. Leading to a better chance to advance in the season/playoff. 

It feels to me that some want to have all-pros across the board with top 5 offense and defense with a QB that throws 6000 yards before feeling like we can win in the league.

That's not how the league is set up. Nobody can say definitely than a player can't help the team win. I just don't view things that way personally. 

[Chocolateman78]

4 hours ago, SerenityNow said:

Yeah that makes sense. It ultimately comes down to the fact that Jon mismanaged the roster in March/April that led to us shuffling trying to make a deal at the deadline to salvage our offense/season.  Everyone could see that we were an injury away from having a terrible receiving group in March. There were plenty of options out there to help with the depth of the group. It also really doesn't help us in the process of figuring out if Marcus is our long term solution either. It was just all around bad management from Jon on the receiver front.

YES!! This is why fans should be mad at JRob... Not because he didn't make a move today. Its the fact he didn't make a move in March/April or even May.

[dtait93]

1 hour ago, KingTitan said:

WR was the topic at hand that's why it's the focus of the post. 

And again, if a WR is worth an 1st then I'd be for it. Don't know if I'd done it for Cooper. Maybe an 2nd. 

But we are being realistic and that's why we don't send out an 1st for Tate. I'm not even saying I would have done it for an 3rd. But I don't think it would be end of the world if we did. 

But yes 1st round WRs bust all the time. 

We aren't one player from being a super bowl team. But we could be one player from being an better offense leading to a better team, leading to a better record. Leading to a better chance to advance in the season/playoff. 

It feels to me that some want to have all-pros across the board with top 5 offense and defense with a QB that throws 6000 yards before feeling like we can win in the league.

That's not how the league is set up. Nobody can say definitely than a player can't help the team win. I just don't view things that way personally. 

It’s the topic but by no means does it mean a 3rd round pick HAS to be used on a WR.

I can only speak for myself, but I’m not in the we need all pros across the board camp lol. I’m of the mindset that it’s not worth a 3rd round pick to rent a player for 9 games when that player isn’t the missing link between us and a Super Bowl appearance. If that 3rd round pick becomes a Byard/Casey type then everyone’s rejoicing. If that 3rd round pick busts then it’s literally the same thing as trading it away for a 9 game rent-a-player that didn’t help us win a championship. It’s literally a win-win that Robinson didn’t pull the trigger today, atleast in my mind.

[Chocolateman78]

Fans don't look at or value draft picks the way GMs do.

Fans look at draft picks and just see it as an unproven player with a 50/50 shot at being good.

GMs look at that pick and see a potential player who can come in and contribute for 4 years on a extremely cheap contract. And the financial impact of draft picks is what I don't think fans consider. Its not always a issue of 'this guy is proven' vs 'who knows what I might get with this 4th round pick.' Its an issue of 'this 4th round pick can get me one player at a high salary for a season or two' vs 'this pick can get me a player I have scouted for months and hand picked, who could give me 4 years of contribution at a fraction of what I would pay that vet for 9 games of service.'  And no GM is looking back over previous drafts thinking ' Well I should deal this pick for a player because I sure suck at drafting in the 3rd round.'

As far as evaluating Mariota goes, at this point I think its more than reasonable to infer that Mariota likely isn't receiving any sort of extension this off-season. If he does, it will certainly be a team friendly one akin to the Bortles deal. Unless he has an MVP calibur second half, I think the writing is clear on the wall that he will play out his rookie deal, with the team holding the franchise tag as the ultimate trump card should he ball out next year. This gives the team another off-season to evaluate, let him get more comfortable with the offense, and add weapons.  

[KingTitan]

23 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

It’s the topic but by no means does it mean a 3rd round pick HAS to be used on a WR.

I can only speak for myself, but I’m not in the we need all pros across the board camp lol. I’m of the mindset that it’s not worth a 3rd round pick to rent a player for 9 games when that player isn’t the missing link between us and a Super Bowl appearance. If that 3rd round pick becomes a Byard/Casey type then everyone’s rejoicing. If that 3rd round pick busts then it’s literally the same thing as trading it away for a 9 game rent-a-player that didn’t help us win a championship. It’s literally a win-win that Robinson didn’t pull the trigger today, atleast in my mind.

No it doesn't have to be a WR. Can be a TE. OG, Pass rusher. Whoever. But again the main thing was WR as topic so that's the purpose of the draft revisit. 

And yeah rental isn't ideal which is why I understand not going for the trades. But I think Thomas is more than a rental. He is signed through 2019. So nine games and a season lol.