Top 10 General Managers

[wackywabbit]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

You got it backwards. There are plenty of HCs who were successful in one decade and unsuccessful in the next. The game changes. Some people adapt. Some people don't.

I think you are getting a much less accurate read if you are evaluating a GM based on how good a team has been over the last 1?!? Year?

[jrry32]

4 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

I think you are getting a much less accurate read if you are evaluating a GM based on how good a team has been over the last 1?!? Year?

I actually think Ozzie has done a good job over the past 5 or so years. Les Snead has done a better job, though. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, jrry32 said:

I actually think Ozzie has done a good job over the past 5 or so years. Les Snead has done a better job, though. 

1 hour ago, wackywabbit said:

I mean, we're not evaluating running backs. I don't think GM is a job where you sharply decline. I would take a GM's full career as valid data points. Naturally a GM that built two SB champions over a decade apart is top 10 for me.

Okay so by this same logic would we also call Peyton Manning a top 10 QB when he was in his last year? I mean, he wasn't at the time because he literally couldn't throw a football like 20 yards down the field, but you have to consider his entire career, right?! 

It doesn't make 

1 hour ago, wackywabbit said:

It's not.

I'm not one of those Ravens' fans that's crying for John Harbaugh's job because it's been 5 whole years since he won a SB, and 3 years since he won a playoff game. His entire career has to factor in. He didn't become a worse coach.

You're right he didn't become a worse coach - he just had to actually coach once Ray and Ed left and we have 5 complete years to see just how good he is, which is league average (at best). Also, when you consistently get out coached by Marvin Lewis, that has to be something.

[wackywabbit]

14 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Okay so by this same logic would we also call Peyton Manning a top 10 QB when he was in his last year? I mean, he wasn't at the time because he literally couldn't throw a football like 20 yards down the field, but you have to consider his entire career, right?! 

Just a ridiculous comparison.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, wackywabbit said:

Just a ridiculous comparison.

You yourself said you have to take their full body of work into account when evaluating who is currently a top 10 <insert position here>. Yes, it is ridiculous.

[wackywabbit]

Just now, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

You yourself said you have to take their full body of work into account when evaluating who is currently a top 10 <insert position here>. Yes, it is ridiculous.

No, I think you read my post wrong. I said it's NOT like we are evaluating running backs.

But I know your opinion on this. Fire everyone because no SB in 5 years and no playoff win in 3. I get it. Don't subscribe to that.

[BAConrad]

1 hour ago, jrry32 said:

I actually think Ozzie has done a good job over the past 5 or so years. Les Snead has done a better job, though. 

People need to drop the whole "This guy CANNOT be ranked above/better than that guy because the former hasnt won anything yet!!!" schtick.

It can be applied in some cases, although it is still a flawed way of thinking.

As you said earlier, what anyone in the league has done (player, coach, GM) over 5 years ago doesnt just erase their most recent years' performance. 

IE Elway won a Superbowl not even THAT long ago in 2015, but NOBODY with half a brain who knows football would truthfully take Elway as their team's GM over GMs like Snead or Roseman right now. 

The league changes every year. With regards to GMs, things like the rising salary cap, rookie contracts, positional value, etc all are examples. 

The formula to building a winning team is by drafting a QB and trying to win in the 3-4 years in which you have him under his rookie deal. And by trying to win, I mean doing things likemaking smart pick for player trades (Rams trading for Cooks and Peters/Roseman trading  picks for Jernigan, Jay Ajayi, Darby, etc)...the former are TBA but simply put those are two guys who are both great/elite players so its safe to assume that LA will not regret the trades and the latter players acquired by Roseman were all incredibly valuable contributors to a SB winning team. And making savvy FA moves like signing players in their primes to 1 year deals and then extending them well below market value before the offseason (ie Alshon Jeffrey) or signing cheap/ below market value veterans who are impactful players (ie Woods, Whitworth, Sullivan, Patrick Robinson, Chris Long, Nigel Bradham, and Nick Foles aka the freaking SUPERBOWL MVP who made a paltry 7 million last year).  And of course, you have to hit on more draft picks than you miss. 

When you go back and look at every team and what their GM has done the last few years, its almost impossible NOT to see that Roseman and Snead have been the clear cut most impressive guys. Guys like Spielman, Caldwell, etc definitely have been very impressive but a slight tier below.

As for Scheider, I will say this: He 100% was the first GM in the NFL to use the aforementioned team building model with those '12-14 Seattle teams. And Roseman and Snead absolutely have taken that model but also put their own fingerprints on it. Schneider was fantastic for 2 seasons. But that doesnt in any way erase his recent years of, frankly, crap decision making. 

He has been egregious when it comes to making pick for player trades.. I mean he literally whiffed on THREE big tradds involving two 1st rd picks (Graham and Harvin) and a 2nd rd pick (the completely forgettable 1 season of Sheldon Richardson).

He has basically whiffed on just a crap ton of draft picks for years now. I mean, how is Malik McDowell doing? You have no idea? Oh right because he doesnt even play football anymore.

He has done a terrible job personnel wise with free agency/signings...Not to beat a dead horse, but theres the fact that he has, to the chagrin of every Seattle fan ever, year after year, either failed to form a competent OL or just simply stopped trying to do so entirely. And done things like taking a RUNNING BACK in the 1st round despite every thing I just talked about about the OL. And this RB? Cant even beat out Chris freaking Carson and so far looks lost in the NFL. Then lets not forget how he let his star corner leave in FA and sign what so far is a ridiculously team friendly deal with the Hawks' freaking division rival! Or how he let Paul Richardson leave because he didnt feel that Richardson was worth the 8 or so million a year that Wash paid him. Which would be actually defensible if he didn't literally sign an inferior WR with little to no NFL production (Lockett) to a 3 year deal for 33 million dollars. Oh and to top it all off, his team looks like a dysfunctional and divided group so much so that its star player at safety, who is still a top 3 player at his position, has been publicly stating his desire to be traded away from the dumpster fire that is Seattle right now.

Im sorry, I have all the respect in the world for Russ Wilson and for those 2012-2014 Seattle teams, but they are not where they are right now simply because "they had to pay their QB" and "well players leave all the time derp derp!!!". They are bad because they have done an almost comically poor job of giving their star QB any sort of help. From failing in their drafts to doing poor jobs during free agencies. 

 

[BAConrad]

20 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Okay so by this same logic would we also call Peyton Manning a top 10 QB when he was in his last year? I mean, he wasn't at the time because he literally couldn't throw a football like 20 yards down the field, but you have to consider his entire career, right?! 

It doesn't make 

You're right he didn't become a worse coach - he just had to actually coach once Ray and Ed left and we have 5 complete years to see just how good he is, which is league average (at best). Also, when you consistently get out coached by Marvin Lewis, that has to be something.

I mean, Jerry Jones is obviously one of the best minds in football. He did, after all, win those 3 Superbowls over 25 years ago. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

7 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

No, I think you read my post wrong. I said it's NOT like we are evaluating running backs.

But I know your opinion on this. Fire everyone because no SB in 5 years and no playoff win in 3. I get it. Don't subscribe to that.

I've literally only advocated for firing Harbaugh, and I think his track record over the past 5 years is quite clear on that front. 

But, when evaluating top 10 current GM's in the NFL, taking their entire track record into account is insane. Like Bacon just pointed out, I guess we gotta put Jerry as #1 since he won those Superbowls in the 1990's.

[wackywabbit]

Hey if you guys want to crown a guy for winning a division title and an off-season" go ahead. I'll take the multiple SB champiom architects.

I think you guys are trying to equate the career arc of a player with that of a GM. There are going to be a lot more spikes over a longer period in the career of a GM. This type of methodology would have had Schneider go from first to the bottom over a couple years. His brain didn't deteriote like Peyton's arm.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Hey if you guys want to crown a guy for winning a division title and an off-season" go ahead. I'll take the multiple SB champiom architects.

I think you guys are trying to equate the career arc of a player with that of a GM. There are going to be a lot more spikes over a longer period in the career of a GM. This type of methodology would have had Schneider go from first to the bottom over a couple years. His brain didn't deteriote like Peyton's arm.

So it's decided then. Jerruh #1!

[wackywabbit]

3 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

So it's decided then. Jerruh #1!

Never said #1, but yea, that sounds ridiculous.. cuz "Jerry Jones".

Oh wait, is he the one who is 10 games under .500 the last 5 years with no playoff wins? No. It's the top GM, Les Snead. Jerruh is only 22 games better than Snead over that span. So funny that my half brain doesn't have Les Snead ahead.

[BAConrad]

2 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Hey if you guys want to crown a guy for winning a division title and an off-season" go ahead. I'll take the multiple SB champiom architects.

I think you guys are trying to equate the career arc of a player with that of a GM. There are going to be a lot more spikes over a longer period in the career of a GM. This type of methodology would have had Schneider go from first to the bottom over a couple years. His brain didn't deteriote like Peyton's arm.

And I think youre making the cliche mistake of caring too much about things that happened years or decades ago when evaluating GMs.

Nobody can just buy themselves a life-time of immunity to criticism in this league. 

When were talking about the best players or HCs or GMs currently and not in an "all time list" way, the most recent 3-5 or so years of performance is IRREFUTABLY the most important factor. People, in any profession, decline or improve as time goes on. Its a fact. 

And sorry, but if youre referring to Snead in "simply winning a division title and an offseason" then I am not so sure you truly are able to evaluate GMs' success. 

Snead has been a great GM for years. He didnt just all of a sudden acquire Aaron Donald last year. Or Gurley. Or Goff. Or Brockers. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 minute ago, wackywabbit said:

Never said #1, but yea, that sounds ridiculous.. cuz "Jerry Jones".

Oh wait, is he the one who is 10 games under .500 the last 5 years with no playoff wins? No. It's the top GM, Les Snead. Jerruh is only 22 games better than Snead over that span. So funny that my half brain doesn't have Les Snead ahead.

So what does that make Ozzie Newsome who is .500 over the past 5 years with 1 playoff win? Suddenly that's top 10?

[BAConrad]

4 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

Never said #1, but yea, that sounds ridiculous.. cuz "Jerry Jones".

Oh wait, is he the one who is 10 games under .500 the last 5 years with no playoff wins? No. It's the top GM, Les Snead. Jerruh is only 22 games better than Snead over that span. So funny that my half brain doesn't have Les Snead ahead.

Ok so basically a GM's abilities/success are completely based off of their team's W/L record with no context.

Hey bro PM me. I have some exciting real estate opportunities in Gary, Indiana that Id like to discuss with you.

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